Need to fine tune 38 load with HP-38

[jwr0201]

I'd like to get some advice on fine tuning a load for 38 special using HP-38 powder with Hornady dry lubricated 158gr LSWC.
I recently finished a lot of 50 - in two batches. Everything came out very well, except that there was a LOT of smoke when either batch was fired. This was done at an inside range, with admittedly poor circulation. I shot several factory rounds, which were dirtier (more residue on the 686), but little or no smoke. Is it possible that my light loads were responsible for the smoke?
The first 25, I loaded with 3.2 gr of HP-38; the second group of 25, I used 3.4 gr. I did see a slight difference in recoil between these two groups, but both were considerably lighter than the factory rounds. The recoil was somewhere between a 22 and a factory light 38.
What could I do to not get the excess smoke? I feel that I need to make an increase in the amount of powder for a more robust round. What would be a good measure to go to without causing excessive leading?
I got my loads from two different sources - 3.1 min and 3.7 max load for this bullet and powder - for regular 38 special rounds. +P for Winchester 231 lists starting load of 4.5gr.
Thx -
RR

 

[jepp2]

Normally the smoke from lead rounds is due to the lubricant. Are you sure that isn't where your smoke is mostly coming from?

An indoor range with poor ventilation isn't going to clear it out very quickly.

 

[Rule3]

HP 38/W 231 is very smoky/dirty at the low end of the load data

The new Hornady manual lists HP 38/W 231 for the 158 gr bullet at 3.2 grs to 4.4 grs.

I would bump up the load a bit.

 

[Beancounter81]

I load 125 gr JHPs in .38 Special with a very light load of W231/HP38 for my wife and get very little smoke even with the light load. I suspect much of your smoke is coming from the lubricant on the lead bullet, not from the powder.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Powder is not the culprit here. Using lead is. Using soft lead, it is going to be worse, especially at the light end of things. Do as Rule suggested, bump it up to the top of the data, which I am sure is safe in any 38spl firearm, and watch what happens. Oh, it won't make the smoke go away, but there should be a bunch less.

Report back on your results.

 

[jwr0201]

may try a plated bullet

It sounds like a couple of things are causing the "smoke". The dry lube on the LSWC and light loading. I'll try heavier loading at the max end.
Do you think that using plated rounds like Rainiers would work better / shoot cleaner?
Thx!
RR

 

[Beancounter81]

A plated bullet should be cleaner since there's no lube.

 

[glen_farmer]

Just yesterday I shot some 38 specials (158 grain Berrys, 4 grains of HP-38), and was surprised by the variation in velocity, using both magnum and normal primers.

To get a more consistent velocity, I used the old trick of point the revolver at the sky prior to shooting the target. That 4 grains of powder was mighty small in that big shell.

A 6 inch 686 was doing about 850 fps with that load. And it was very light recoil.

 

[jwr0201]

125gr vs 158gr plated

Is there any advantage in shooting 158gr over 125gr plated bullets in 38's & 357 mags?
RR

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The two charges you listed are light IMO.

My favorite load using a 158gr LSWC bullet is 4.0gr W231/HP-38. It's very accurate in my revolvers.

 

[Rule3]

There is no advantage to the lighter bullet other than perhaps a bit more velocity. Lighter bullets generally use a little more powder.

As to plated or FMJ bullets, you would have little to no smoke. As mentioned most of the smoke is from the lube used on the lead bullets. Even though HP 38 and W 231 is a excellent powder for the 38 special it is one of the "sootier" powders.

Try some as AACD mentioned at the 4.0 to 4.4 gr load. You will see a difference.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Just yesterday I shot some 38 specials (158 grain Berrys, 4 grains of HP-38), and was surprised by the variation in velocity, using both magnum and normal primers.

To get a more consistent velocity, I used the old trick of point the revolver at the sky prior to shooting the target. That 4 grains of powder was mighty small in that big shell.

This is not a slam at Glen, so don't take it that way. While I understand this practice, I find it disconcerting that it is employed. To me this is a pure sign that the load is too light, period. I want my loads to be consistent no matter what position the firearm is pointed before I pull the trigger. On a range, not a problem, any other time, unacceptable.

I practice with full powder loads because that is what I will be shooting when I NEED the firearm. Just me, not right nor wrong and vice a versa.

If your loads NEED to be light for a novice shooter, go to the lightest bullet possible, load to the maximum and TEACH that shooter that there is going to be some recoil that needs to be dealt with. They will be better shooters in the long run.

W231/HP-38 is not the "fast" powder most folks think it is. It is a good pistol powder but not in the same class as Bullseye or the like. Run the pressure up and it will perform just fine.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree. Even though the lube on lead bullets will cause a lot of smoke so will light loads. I consider W231/HP-38 to be one of the cleaner powders available but not unless you are in the upper ends of the pressure range just like most smokeless powders. You can not judge a powders "cleanness" with light loads or when used with lead bullets.

W231 can be one of the cleanest powders in the .38 Special but with the right lube (or wrong lube) it can be extremely sootie, especially with a light load.

 

[OKFC05]

It sounds like a couple of things are causing the "smoke". The dry lube on the LSWC and light loading. I'll try heavier loading at the max end.
Do you think that using plated rounds like Rainiers would work better / shoot cleaner?
Thx!
RR

Use a plated 158gr bullet and 4.3gr HP38---- it is so low in smoke you will think it is an entirely different load---and you will be loading my standard IDPA/SSR ammo. I use plated bullets so I don't make a cloud of smoke in front of me shooting rapid fire.

My bullseye/plinking load of 3.0gr of HP 38 under a TL148gr lubed with Alox blows smoke rings and leaves soot in the barrel (which however is soft and cleans right out).

 

[Skip Sackett]

I use plated bullets so I don't make a cloud of smoke in front of me shooting rapid fire.

Yeah, not like this: (Click on to watch!)

 

[venomballistics]

seems we have the rookie questions here.
so let me take a shot at setting a few things straight for ya.
lead, plated, or jacketed ...
youve no doubt gravitated to lead for its bang to buck ratio. theres no way around the smoke here, you will always have some and you will always have extra crud to clean out of the gun with it.
we clean em anyhow so whats the problem? OK perhaps your at an indoor range or speed shooting where its a liability. This being the case, lead isnt for you. if its not an issue and your just wondering where all the smoke is coming from, than its velocity advantage might be desirable as well as its economy.
next in line is plated.
Look Ma, no smoke. You'll pay for this attribute a little in velocity but not as much as you would with full drawn jacket construction.
jacketed ... To engrave rifling into the copper jacket takes extra energy over lead or plated. where energy = mass * velocity squared I only consider it in very high performance loads where I need the jacket to hold the bullet together under expansion. This is rare in pistols IME.

now on to choosing weight and design.
be it lead, plated, or jacketed the objective is to have a load that hits your target, penetrates through the muscle into the vitals, goes off like a hand grenade dumping all the energy it has, then exits through the back side layer of muscle and falls to the ground a few feet behind having spent everything it had to offer through the target.
You'll never nail that as it is the ideal perfect utopian concept. Just get as close as you can with a little margin for over penetration.
You will find that a flat point imparts more energy in a given distance than a round nose, you will also find that a heavier bullet of the same basic design penetrates better than a lighter one. Hollow points too allow for adjustments in this penetration / devastation ratio as well as control over what depth the bullet goes into hand grenade mode.

When punching paper, none of this really matters in theory, however every load should have a designed purpose off paper for when these things do matter, like hunting, pest control, or SD/HD.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Here is my "Peanut" shooting her M14. It is loaded with 160gr H&G #290BB SWC with 3.5gr of Bullseye. Now, soaking wet she weighs just a bit over 120# and is 5'4" or less.
She also has to shoot left eyed because she took a bottle rocket to her right one that destroyed her macula. So, right handed, left eyed, normal power 38spl loads. Um, if she can do it, well, um, most other folks can. Just sayin'!
(click to watch)

 

[jwr0201]

Good Info here...

The information and advice everyone has given here is something you cannot get from any of the manuals that I've seen yet. Most or all of the reloading books list both minimum and maximum loads for powders, bullets, etc. BUT - these same books do not give any info on what the outcome is of using these light loads. After getting schooled here - why on earth would anyone ever use a beginning load if a good description of the shortcomings of using that load were given in the first place? Seems to me that books and reloading manuals are only giving statistics and not necessarily the whole story.
I really do appreciate the time everyone here took to reply and share their experience! I also can only hope that when I get old(er) & grizzeled with age & experience that I can help out someone else with such pearls of wisdom! On to the higher end of the load range we go...and with plated bullets to boot!
RR

 

[Rule3]

- why on earth would anyone ever use a beginning load if a good description of the shortcomings of using that load were given in the first place? On to the higher end of the load range we go...and with plated bullets to boot!
RR

In many loads, with different powders, the lower loads are actually the most accurate and of course you use less powder so it's more economical and does not beat you or your gun up.

It's not true with all powders and bullets however. If you look through the manuals, many will list the potentially most accurate load combination of a certain powder and bullet based on their testing.

Using plated bullets in a revolver (with their thin copper plating) you must be careful not to over roll crimp them. If you do, you will crack through the plating and accuracy will suffer. They do not have a crimp groove so you are basically making one to prevent the bullet from moving.

 

[TheTinMan]

Rule 3 - would you recommend a taper crimp instead of a roll crimp for plated bullets in target loads?

Maybe it's too obvious for experienced handloaders, but no one has mentioned the velocity limitations with lead bullets. I recently started working with .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads myself and keep running across this.

AFAICT the swaged Hornady lead bullets are quite soft and need to be kept near or below 900 fps to avoid excessive leading of the barrel. The Hornady manual specifically mentions 800 fps being ideal for their 148gr HBWC in .38 Special for accuracy. That's shown as a "max" load. Hornady shows 4.1 grains of W231 producing 800 fps with the 158gr LSWC.

A harder cast lead bullet may be able to go up to 1,110 fps without problems. I've come to the conclusion that some of the loading manuals/references set their max loads for lead based on velocity instead of pressure.

For example, the max for .357 Magnum using W231 under a 158gr cast lead SWC on the Hodgdon site is shown as 5.0 grains. However, the pressure shown for that load is only 23,900 CUP with muzzle velocity of 1,109 fps. I recently came across the Winchester data from 2003 (before Hodgdon took over their powder) which showed a max of 6.7 grains at 1,275 fps and chamber pressure of 42,500 CUP which is similar to other max load pressures.

BTW the same Winchester data table shows a max load for a 148gr lead WC with velocity of only 880 and pressure of 19,500 CUP. From what I've read, the wadcutters tend to go unstable (i.e. tumble) at speeds much over 800 fps. Again, the "max" load seems to be maximum effective load sometimes rather than max pressure.

The load manuals don't tell you all of the details behind the data.

I've been working with the Hornady 148gr HBWC and 158gr LSWC HP bullets, but a mentor has suggested Penn cast lead bullets as a better alternative in terms of accuracy and a wider window of acceptable velocity, especially for .357 Magnum.

Sorry for the long post. One last thought: in my experience the hottest loads are not necessarily the most accurate. Each gun has it's favorite load. Plus IMHO there's nothing wrong with an accurate, light target load when your objective is tight groups on a piece of paper.