Need to ID k frame pistol for criminal case

B

BostonGunlawyer

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2024
Messages
9
Reaction score
48
I am a lawyer in MA, where we have the most outrageous gun laws, written by lawyers who have never handled firearms.

I have case where the government cannot Identify the make and model of a pistol. We believe it is a S&W K 200 that had been modified from a .38 to a .22 pre-war to train British troops (has British military stamp on cylinder).

There’s no make/model stamp, serial number is 7xxxxx, one line “Made in USA” stamp, 7 inch barrel.

But we aren’t sure and are looking for other options or some confirmation. All input is greatly appreciated….

IMG_5961.jpg

IMG_5960.jpg
 
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
No sufficient detail can be seen from your photos. They would have to be far more detailed to be of use.

Taking your word that is is now a .22, there were many of the S&W revolvers provided to the British from ca. 1939 through 1945. Of these probably several hundred were modified by companies such as Cogswell & Harrison to fire .22 rim-fire ammunition. This was done, to my knowledge, post WWII, not pre-war, and primarily for sale in the U.S.

As a retired LEO I don't understand why any of this is important to prosecution of a criminal case! It can easily be seen that it is a gun, and test-firing would prove it functions as intended and matches the crime bullets. Other than proving it was in possession of the defendant and handled by him, what else is needed? There is no question it is a S&W Military and Police revolver of which literally millions were made before WWII. why would it be important to know if it was a military
lend-lease gun or not?That is no more important than knowing if a civilian model was originally sold to a police department or was stolen prior to defendants possession/use.

Even if the charge is simply illegal possession what possible difference could any of this make? Your question seems to basically be who made the gun (S&W) and who was it originally owned by?
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the forums. It is hard for us to tell you much from those pictures. I tend to agree with gerhard1. Since you are in MA, why not take it to S&W in Springfield? They can tell you if it was a WWII .38 British Service Revolver (K-200) in the beginning. We see a lot of these guns that were modified after being surplussed. The cylinder and barrels were sleeved from .38 to .22 and the hammer modified. Then the guns were sold to the public. I doubt the mods were done for the military. At the time, they needed every functional weapon they could get their hands on. Making a target .22 wouldn't have make much sense.
 
I believe it is probably a modified K frame. More of the serial number off the butt just xxx the last three, would be a big help. Also, are there any letters proceeding the number?. There may also be one on bottom of barrel above ejector rod and another on the back side of the yoke that is only visible through a chamber or with cylinder off yoke.

The rear sights are certainly added on and the front one also to accommodate the added height of the add on rear.

A good picture of the rear of the cylinder would help establish modification as well as a good picture of the muzzle. The barrel length is measured from face of cylinder to muzzle. 7" is odd especially for a 38-200. But the lug under barrel appears to be factory as does most of the barrel contour.

There have been a couple other S&W revolvers modified to 22 that have shown up.
 
This looks to be a Pre-War K frame handgun that was modified. There wouldn't be a model number since this one was manufactured prior to 1957/58 when S&W began assigning them. The sights are clearly not S&W factory. The ejector rod on the cylinder is post war, possibly indicating the cylinder itself came from another gun. The serial number on the butt of the gun should match a number stamped on the rear of the cylinder.
 
Truckman said:
Likely a Cogswell & Harrison conversion as the grips look similar to one I had...They were common in the postwar era...:)...Ben
Click to expand...

That is correct. During the late 1950s-early 1960s C&H converted some .38 S&W wartime “Victory” revolvers (aka BSRs) into .22 Target revolvers, which was a bigger job than it sounds. The barrels were replaced with new .22 barrels, chambers were sleeved to .22, and target sights were added. Just how many were converted I cannot say, but they were absolutely advertised for sale in the USA. There are some postings about them here on this forum, including advertisements for them. I will try to find them for you. In this case, the serial number given indicates it is likely a pre-Victory M&P which shipped in 1940.
 
Last edited:
There should be some stampings on the barrel if original. If original, the left side should say SMITH & WESSON and right side may have been removed, but worth a look. Top of barrel should contain several patent dates and the Smith & Wesson address. Check that out and let us know. More in focus photos would help, especially the rear of the cylinder and bottom of the butt. Also, I see some stampings on the cylinder, but cannot make them out?
 
Last edited:
glowe said:
There should be some stampings on the barrel if original. Left side should say SMITH & WESSON and right side may have been removed, but worth a look. Top of barrel should contain several patent dates and the Smith & Wesson address. Check that out and let us know. More in focus photos would help, especially the rear of t the cylinder and bottom of the butt. Also, I see some stampings on the cylinder, but cannot make them out?
Click to expand...
The barrels used were new, and would have no S&W stamps.
 
The S&W Forums solving crimes!

It's so strange how threads seem to bunch on the same subjects here. Probably because a member sees X post that reminds them to post on the same or tangential subject. I have a very interesting sleeved rimfire on its way to my FFL right now...very different than the modified BSR in question, but definitely one with a lot of aftermarket work.
 
hkcavalier said:
The S&W Forums solving crimes!

It's so strange how threads seem to bunch on the same subjects here. Probably because a member sees X post that reminds them to post on the same or tangential subject. I have a very interesting sleeved rimfire on its way to my FFL right now...very different than the modified BSR in question, but definitely one with a lot of aftermarket work.
Click to expand...

Pictures should be forthcoming. Otherwise we will have to issue a subpoena.
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the Forum, and good luck with your case. I'm not sure that the Forum can help much without more detailed pictures, and S&W may not be able to help since it was an aftermarket conversion. It does appear to be a S&W BSR revolver, but probably not a Cogswell & Harrison post-war conversion. C&H always stamped their revolvers as shown in the attached pictures. The long 7" bbl. also was part of the conversion. I tend to agree that it would be post-war conversion for civilian use and not a British WWII training revolver. The finish on that revolver looks like it was either exposed to blood or near a fire.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_5249.jpg
    IMG_5249.jpg
    61.5 KB · Views: 93
  • IMG_5250.jpg
    IMG_5250.jpg
    48.9 KB · Views: 89
Hy thanks for all the quick response. Gonna try to answer some questions.

First off I can’t tell if the pics are coming out clear through the forum. I’ll post some more shortly cause it appears some people are able to see them.

How it helps the case is that the government can’t ID when it was manufactured.in MA a firearm manufacture before 1900 is exempt from requiring a license. There are some modelconsistent with that began being manufactured in 1899. Keep in mind that I don’t have to prove this specific gun was made in 1899, they have to prove it wasn’t, which they can’t. So long as I can tie it one one of the models that started production in 1899.



The serial number has no letters starts with 7xX956. 6 round cylendar that spins left. 1 stamp on the cylinder is British military police. There’s a second stamp we can’t make out from the photos but hopefully going to inspect in person next week. No stamps on the barrel.

Pics to come.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Gun Relics
Interesting WWII era Catalog
Replies
6
Views
499
DWalt
DWalt
R
.41 Bronze Bore Brushes NIP; Bbls&cyls in .38S&W; M66 bbls/Cyls/Yokes; Dade K loaders NIP
Replies
9
Views
2K
RWJ
R
R
NomMore Nationwide Injunctions…
Replies
2
Views
137
Rocketmedic40
R
S
original Model 39-2 and 52 stocks
Replies
3
Views
441
gmborkovic
G
S
My new to me K-22
Replies
3
Views
675
RKmesa
RKmesa

Latest posts

Back
Top