New Model 19-9 Classic purchase

[686Oz]

Just for curiosity, you stated took delivery of your new gun. Does this mean you bought it online, and picked it up at your FFL, or you bought it at your local gun shop, and walked out with it? Either way, didn't you examine it closely at the time?
Larry

boykinlp, In store pick up after it had been delivered to them from the warehouse. Yes, I inspected as best I could as it was covered in the preservation grease and oil as they do. You had to as I did cleaned the grease etc off once home with new clean patches as they describe in the handbook. Only at that time did I see the very poor finish, scratches etc. As for the hammer, I thought in the store initially that was stiff and that it had a cylinder face guard in place. One doesn't expect to buy a new revolver and receive it with so many flaws. Would you agree?

 

[shawn mccarver]

What are your thoughts Shawn?

I don't like those issues, and I would not have purchased it.

 

[686Oz]

I don't like those issues, and I would not have purchased it.[/QUOTE

Nor do I Shawn, hence why I'm seeking a replacement asap. One buys in good faith with an expectation of quality.

 

[photoman]

I don't like those issues, and I would not have purchased it.[/QUOTE

Nor do I Shawn, hence why I'm seeking a replacement asap. One buys in good faith with an expectation of quality.

Replacement? Good luck.

I have purchased two 686's in the last year and both had serious issues. I fixed the first one myself and promptly sold it. The second one I sent back to the factory. Took six weeks. Haven't shot that one since it has been back.

Current quality with the double action revolvers coming from S&W is unacceptable and I will not be buying any more.

"Why didn't you inspect it before taking delivery?"

Because not all problems are evident with a non-firing inspection.

p.s. Someone mentioned no gunsmiths at S&W any more. That's actually true regarding the standard production line. It was either 2006 or 2010 that S&W got rid of the gunsmiths on the production line. I can't find the news article to confirm the date.

 

[686Oz]

Replacement? Good luck.

I have purchased two 686's in the last year and both had serious issues. I fixed the first one myself and promptly sold it. The second one I sent back to the factory. Took six weeks. Haven't shot that one since it has been back.

Current quality with the double action revolvers coming from S&W is unacceptable and I will not be buying any more.

"Why didn't you inspect it before taking delivery?"

Because not all problems are evident with a non-firing inspection.

p.s. Someone mentioned no gunsmiths at S&W any more. That's actually true regarding the standard production line. It was either 2006 or 2010 that S&W got rid of the gunsmiths on the production line. I can't find the news article to confirm the date.

I agree photoman,

I will not purchase another new S&W again. It's been a very disappointing experience. From what I'm learning a replacement will more than likely produce the same result. The build process is broken, no QA and customer gets to deal with it. From my now current research on the matter, it's very common to receive new stock with multiple faults and flaws. Buy new and receive something thats borderline second hand. Can you imagine buying a new vehicle and taking delivery with poor paintwork, scratches on several panels etc. and this was commonplace. The brand would take a huge hit.

 

[jeeps]

Not Grandpa's Model 19 for sure!

 

[stansdds]

It's really sad because the new versions of the 19 and 66 should be easier to assemble than the old versions. I expect it is just carelessness by the employees on the assembly line or they have a daily quota that pushes them to the point of having to "slap" them together without regard to quality. Either way, it's sad and it's not the first time either. Quality dipped during the last years of Bangor-Punta ownership as well.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Thank you Armorer951,

A least I now know what that issue is.

How would that be fixed or can it be fixed?

Often, that problem can be fixed by installing a hand that is a couple thousandths thinner than the original one, or thin down the nose of the original. That's a lot easier (and safer) than fitting each ratchet. If you just want to fix that one problem and keep the gun, I will send you a thinner hand if you can tell me the exact width of the one in it.

 

[white cloud]

Protocall, that's very generous of you.

It's pretty sad situation. This is one reason why I tell people to not sell good shooting guns. Crummy quality, inflation, possible future legislation and companies getting sold like Remington was are all reasons not to sell nice guns.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Hello,

I have recently taken delivery of a new Model 19-9 Classic revolver. So to say the least, I am disappointed with the quality. On opening the box I discovered the following issues.

1) Poor bluing. On the frame in two places the bluing is missing and has a matt finish similar to the top strap is present. The bluing overall seems blotchy.
2) Scratches in several places including frame, barrel and trigger guard.
3) A slither of silver steel is protruding on either side of the front sight.
4) When the hammer is pulled back for single action it becomes stiff and an unusual in the last section of travel before it locks in.
5) The pistol grip screw head slot is damaged, bent and burred.

Thanks,

I'd add 6) turn line on the cylinder. In one of the pics you posted, looks like there is already a turn line next to the cylinder notch. Have you taken the gun to the range yet, or is it still "as new in box"? The fluting of the cylinder looks overdone with the polishing, the lines are blurred and rounded, where they should be sharp as on the older guns.

No way would I have accepted that at the dealer. Caveat Emptor, and a shirttail or even a paper towel to wipe off the surface grease before accepting it would be what I'd have done. Be sure to send those pictures to S&W, or take better ones, when you ask for a return label.

 

[dsk]

Gun shops are the worst places to inspect a new firearm. The lighting usually sucks and you feel pressured to not waste the salesman's time, especially when other customers are milling around inside the store. On top of that the gun is usually covered in oil or gunk which masks many sins. I can't begin to count all the times I brought home a "perfect" gun, only to find an annoying flaw that stood out like a sore thumb once I finally had a chance to inspect it in the comfort of my own home.

Anyway, sorry to hear of your situation and hope you are able to get S&W to understand that you're not happy at all with your new firearm.

 

[Narragansett]

OP, I am sorry to hear of your troubles., and I certainly do not want to add to your hard feelings, but why did you take delivery and not inspect it at the gun shop?

 

[Beemerguy53]

Not Grandpa's Model 19 for sure!

The funny thing is...in most modern products, computer-assisting machining and modern assembly techniques result -- or should result -- in a product that is superior in fit and finish to its hand-assembled predecessors.

I bought my 2013 VW Golf R on Black Friday in 2012...ten years ago. I have just under 190,000 miles on it. It uses less than 1 quart of oil between its 10,000 mile oil changes, it passes my state's emissions test, and it still runs like a scalded cat. I have had to perform just a few minor repairs. A couple of generations ago, that sort of reliability was unimaginable.

There is no excuse for any modern firearm to have the flaws and defects that 680oz found in his new Model 19.

 

[686Oz]

Not Grandpa's Model 19 for sure!

No it's not Jeeps, its far from it.

 

[686Oz]

It's really sad because the new versions of the 19 and 66 should be easier to assemble than the old versions. I expect it is just carelessness by the employees on the assembly line or they have a daily quota that pushes them to the point of having to "slap" them together without regard to quality. Either way, it's sad and it's not the first time either. Quality dipped during the last years of Bangor-Punta ownership as well.

stansdds, it is. Won't change until they recognise it and want to affect process improvement.

 

[686Oz]

Often, that problem can be fixed by installing a hand that is a couple thousandths thinner than the original one, or thin down the nose of the original. That's a lot easier (and safer) than fitting each ratchet. If you just want to fix that one problem and keep the gun, I will send you a thinner hand if you can tell me the exact width of the one in it.

Thanks for the offer Protocall, trying to get S&W to resolve.

 

[686Oz]

I'd add 6) turn line on the cylinder. In one of the pics you posted, looks like there is already a turn line next to the cylinder notch. Have you taken the gun to the range yet, or is it still "as new in box"? The fluting of the cylinder looks overdone with the polishing, the lines are blurred and rounded, where they should be sharp as on the older guns.

No way would I have accepted that at the dealer. Caveat Emptor, and a shirttail or even a paper towel to wipe off the surface grease before accepting it would be what I'd have done. Be sure to send those pictures to S&W, or take better ones, when you ask for a return label.

Hello Hair Trigger,

Yes, clear turn lines on the cylinder. The Model 19-9 has not been on the range. It remains in it's box unused & brand new.

I have learnt from the experience. Certainly not what I was expecting from a new purchase.

S&W have not provided a satisfactory solution at this time.

 

[686Oz]

Gun shops are the worst places to inspect a new firearm. The lighting usually sucks and you feel pressured to not waste the salesman's time, especially when other customers are milling around inside the store. On top of that the gun is usually covered in oil or gunk which masks many sins. I can't begin to count all the times I brought home a "perfect" gun, only to find an annoying flaw that stood out like a sore thumb once I finally had a chance to inspect it in the comfort of my own home.

Anyway, sorry to hear of your situation and hope you are able to get S&W to understand that you're not happy at all with your new firearm.

S&W have been told dsk, nothing of substance has come back after a lot of chasing.

 

[dsk]

The funny thing is...in most modern products, computer-assisting machining and modern assembly techniques result -- or should result -- in a product that is superior in fit and finish to its hand-assembled predecessors.

I bought my 2013 VW Golf R on Black Friday in 2012...ten years ago. I have just under 190,000 miles on it. It uses less than 1 quart of oil between its 10,000 mile oil changes, it passes my state's emissions test, and it still runs like a scalded cat. I have had to perform just a few minor repairs. A couple of generations ago, that sort of reliability was unimaginable.

There is no excuse for any modern firearm to have the flaws and defects that 680oz found in his new Model 19.

Revolvers are not cheap guns to make, and gun manufacturers have gotten so used to cranking out cookie-cutter plastic semi-autos that they seem unwilling to continue investing any time into all-steel guns that still require some hand polishing and fitting. The secret to the new line of Colt revolvers is that nearly all the parts are made from outside contractors, and the people at Colt are merely assemblers. S&W seems to have fewer workers on hand who know how to build revolvers, and in fact if you send an older revolver to them for something like correcting excessive cylinder gap and re-setting the barrel odds are they can't even do it anymore.

Modern CNC machining should give us consumers a more consistent product, and perhaps in the areas that are made in cookie-cutter fashion they are, but the issues with the OP's gun all appear to be with things that are still being done by hand like the polishing, bluing and final fitting.

 

[686Oz]

OP, I am sorry to hear of your troubles., and I certainly do not want to add to your hard feelings, but why did you take delivery and not inspect it at the gun shop?

Narragansett, if you read through the threads its states how the Model 19-9 is presented new in storage grease. So you inspect the best you can in store as I did. Once home I was able to follow the handbook instructions to clean the storage grease off with new clean patches. Then the finish issues etc were visible and evident.

As for buying and receiving a new revolver from a major brand, you don't have expectations of dealing with such quality issues.

Would that not be your expectation?

 

[686Oz]

The funny thing is...in most modern products, computer-assisting machining and modern assembly techniques result -- or should result -- in a product that is superior in fit and finish to its hand-assembled predecessors.

I bought my 2013 VW Golf R on Black Friday in 2012...ten years ago. I have just under 190,000 miles on it. It uses less than 1 quart of oil between its 10,000 mile oil changes, it passes my state's emissions test, and it still runs like a scalded cat. I have had to perform just a few minor repairs. A couple of generations ago, that sort of reliability was unimaginable.

There is no excuse for any modern firearm to have the flaws and defects that 680oz found in his new Model 19.

Very true Beemerguy53.

 

[dsk]

When I buy a brand-new gun I expect it to be free of nicks and scratches at the very least. Unfortunately due to careless handling at the factory I've run into many Colt 1911s with scratches on the polished flats, new Ruger 10/22s with dings in the wood stocks, SIG pistols with noticeable scuffs on them, and as we all know every new Colt AR comes from the factory looking like a battlefield pickup from Afghanistan. And then there were the new Colt Pythons with dinged-up muzzle crowns thanks to the uncoated steel rods they were being stored on during production.

It seems a lot of gun manufacturers simply don't care, figuring that most buyers aren't that picky and those who are will simply choose a gun without damage.

 

[AveragEd]

Has anyone had similar experiences buying a new S&W? I have been just reading some horror stories online. Quality assurance processes seem to be lacking as well as final QA.

I own a lot of S&W revolvers but they are all older ones - pre-MIM and IL - so I can't comment on S&W's revolver service but back in March, a new Model 41 I had ordered from S&W in November arrived. When I shot it, it would not eject fired cases. So I called for help with it and was told that I should use CCI Standard Velocity ammo as I was using 22LR match fodder and CCI SV is the ammo with which they test-fire.

That made no difference so I called again and was told to send it back. I did and received it in a month, which I thought was decent turnaround time. The paperwork with it stated that they polished the feed ramp and "repaired the barrel" which might have referred to the feed ramp polishing. I have no idea how any barrel work would affect ejection but I'm not a gunsmith.

The condition persisted - out of two 10-round magazines shot, it ejected two cases - so I took it to my local gunsmith. He admitted that he hadn't worked on many Model 41s but thought the slide felt excessively stiff to move, something I had attributed to my arthritic hands. He laid a straightedge along the slide's rails and a high spot was evident. When that was corrected, the gun went through a magazine of target shells without a hitch.

On the flip side, about eight years ago I returned a 1911PC for a problem with the Briley barrel bushing. The actual gunsmith working on it called me and discussed what he wanted to do to it. But that was with the Performance Center so that might make a difference.

I don't think any company's customer service is what it used to be.

Ed

 

[Oracle]

I wouldn't expect to find the issues you found on a S&W revolver. It is unfortunate your 19 in such a state. I only have S&W revolvers and the only issue I have had is a grip screw with a head looking like a Leatherman was used on it. You would think the assemblers would have S&W revolver specific screwdrivers. I solely use S&W revolver specific screwdrivers which are available from an online and won't break the bank.

 

[Narragansett]

Narragansett, if you read through the threads its states how the Model 19-9 is presented new in storage grease. So you inspect the best you can in store as I did. Once home I was able to follow the handbook instructions to clean the storage grease off with new clean patches. Then the finish issues etc were visible and evident.

As for buying and receiving a new revolver from a major brand, you don't have expectations of dealing with such quality issues.

Would that not be your expectation?

Well, I understand your major brand comment, but I spend enough time reading this forum, that while I would hope for no issues, I would be certainly prepared for a rigorous inspection.

I do not buy new guns, and most of mine come from fellow forum members.

I forget who mentioned it, but if I were going to plunk down my money on a new gun, I would bring a flashlight, magnifying glass, and feeler gauges.

Also, with my money on the line, the last things I would be worrying about would be the salesman's time and the other people in the store

 

[TheTinMan]

Passing quality control on to the end consumer seems to be typical today. Don't forget that many firearms are purchased, taken home, and never fired even if loaded. Buyers don't know better and producers don't care.

I took a tour of Gibson's guitar factory in Memphis maybe 20 years ago. The tour guide pointed out the "quality control bin" at every work station. The conclusion I came to was you'd be really lucky to get a guitar where some part or process hadn't been re-done along the way. The workers in the finish booth looked like they couldn't wait to get out. I had been thinking about a new Gibson semi-hollow guitar before the tour. Bought a Heritage instead and never looked back. But at least in the Gibson plant someone was looking at the product…

Don't think these problems are Smith & Wesson's alone. I bought a Colt King Cobra sight unseen in 2019 because … new snake gun! The trigger and hammer were both too thin for comfortable use. The gun shot 2" left at 5 yards. It just felt cheap. Worst of all, there were 4 if not 5 steps in the trigger reset, with the last one JUST before you could pull the trigger again. On the second step, I could pull the trigger and feel it let go of whatever notch was supposed to be holding it. Bottom line: firing fast in double action wasn't an option.

I contacted Colt customer service. Sent video with sound demonstrating the odd trigger reset. "Working as intended" was the response. I finally opened it up and discovered that there was a significant chip off of the top contact surface of the hand. Nothing looked like it had been fitted - just MIM **** dropped in. Buttoned it back up and traded it in. Never felt so good about getting rid of a gun.

Grumpy Old Fart
aka Chip

 

[sigp220.45]

That stinks, buddy.

Are you in the US? Your name and "chalk and cheese" comment make me wonder if you're down under.

Definitely send it back. And I also don't do a full detailed inspection at the shop. Jeweler's loupe? C'mon. I take the gun home and look there.

Good luck, and sorry about your bad experience. Colt seems to turning out good guns these days. Maybe give them a try. My 2020 Python is at least as good as a vintage 686 ever was, and three times the gun S&W is churning out.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Hello Hair Trigger,

Yes, clear turn lines on the cylinder. The Model 19-9 has not been on the range. It remains in it's box unused & brand new.

I have learnt from the experience. Certainly not what I was expecting from a new purchase.

S&W have not provided a satisfactory solution at this time.

That makes no sense at all. Hasn't been on the range or used at all, yet it has a distinct turn line. The ONLY way a revolver develops a turn line is through rotation of the cylinder against the cylinder stop. For that to happen, at the very least somebody has to be playing with it and rotating the cylinder through dry firing or cocking/decocking. In that sense it isn't new, either, regardless of having been fired or not. I'd press S&W for a full return and replacement, and not a repair, if you want a brand new gun. Otherwise, I'd ask for a full refund on the return, then look for an older used one (pre 1982, or at least a dash-5 or earlier), where you can at least expect to see a few flaws, but at the same time get a reliable and essentially more valuable gun.

 

[scruffy]

Out of curiosity I checked out some hi res photos of NIB Model 19 Classics on Gunbroker. Every one had a cylinder turn line, some more noticeable than others, but all had it. The NIB 19 Carry with matte black finish looked even worse.

 

[Laketime]

Seems to be a sad reality these days in terms of both quality and quality control. Sorry you're having to deal with this.

If you decide to send it back to S&W, please let us know how it goes.

That was a common problem I had on several guns from the 70"s and mid 80"s. I use to own.