New Model 3 Extractor Problem

[sw44russ]

Hmmm, looks like I have a 'Non Extractor' Model...

The Uberti Option could be tricky as Importing even Parts of 'Modern' Firearms (yes, Replicas are considered Modern Firearms in the Colonies)
attract horrendous restrictions with Customs. Plus, no guarantee said parts would fit.

I see two viable options; have the parts made here; my Gunsmith is pretty good at Hand Making these kinds of things; but detailed Pictures and Measurements would be needed.

OR

Finding Replacements from a donor Gun which may be possible if I can indeed change to the later system and have options as mentioned - using an extractor from a 1st Model DA or a later New Model.

I have a pal who operates a well known 'Dug up Gun Museum' in Cody WY. He has a lot of Relics; one of which may yield the parts I need. Only problem is, he's Closed for the Winter and away working, so a long wait would be in store.

Meantime, Pictures and/or Measurements would be much appreciated. If I can swap over to the later System, it would probably simplify things by the sounds of it. Some more pics now of those parts; if they are wrong, at least I am a bit better armed for what i'm up against.

 

[sw44russ]

I stayed in the background here, not to step on anyone else's words nor confuse the diagnosis.

If you email me a diagram, marking EXACTLY what you need, I will take a look in my bag of tricks ( Model 3 parts ) and the old parts guns I have.

Russ, use the email selection in my contact info. Just send me a test email so I can respond. When you send the first contact via email from the forum, I don't think you can attach anything to it. When I respond you can attach the diagram or whatever.

I see what mmaher is explaining except I'm not sure what he is describing as a "leaf spring".

I haven't had one apart in few years, Russ, but don't mind at all to help you out;

The internal rod that I described in one of my earlier responses (looks like a threaded rod but not threaded, instead with steps) looks a bit peculiar to me but OK. Looks like, perhaps, a replacement part. If it is, I'd LOVE to find out who is manufacturing replacement parts for the old Model 3 variations.

Emailed you through the facility here Sal. I would gladly send you a Diagram of what I need, but that's where I'm in the dark. Never having had one of these apart before I am very much Flying Blind here.

 

[model3sw]

Russ, this diagram is not the type of extractor you have.

If we need to, we can ask Papa Ed Cornett. Gosh, he's probably got the original S&W diagram from 1882, when he originally sketched it for S&W ( Just kidding Pop ).

All kidding aside, some place one of us has a correct diagram. I think there's a diagram in one of my turn-of-the-century S&W catalogs. (That's the turn of the PREVIOUS century 1899 to 1900) of should we call that Y 1.9K ?

Somewhere around the 1887-ish ( I only have a reprint of that) to 1916 ... which I have most of the original catalogs.

 

[sw44russ]

I've searched and searched for a Diagram of the Early Set up. That one - from Uberti, was the best I could come up with.

I'll keep trawling Google Images; but often they are simply random related Images and simply add more guesses to the Guesswork!

Your help and efforts ARE appreciated though.

 

[rct269]

As an aside, WD-40 (Water Displacement Formula #40) was noted as not a lubricant. Truer words were never spoken! It also is a truly sorry penatrent---compared to almost anything else. It also gums up something fierce with age.

Some of our home brew crowd swear by ATF (automatic transmission fluid) mixed with------------------something I don't recall right off. Perhaps one of them will speak up and help you out.

The good news is, if you still play with engines that use a distributor, and moisture condenses inside, a good blast of WD-40 followed by a better blast of compressed air will have you back in business----right now!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mmaher94087]

"ATF (automatic transmission fluid) mixed with------------------something". ATF and Acetone. Works great.

Look at the Radiographs (XRAYS) in Appendix VI of the Neal & Jinks book. In the reprint of the Revised (1975) book the photos are horrible (blurry). Find an original printing (either edition) by Barnes. The radiographs still aren't clear enough to scale a part but at least one can get an idea of what's missing. I'm crossing my fingers that Sal will find the needed pawl in his parts stash.

Edit to add: " ..I'm not sure what he is describing as a "leaf spring".". It's the flat spring that attaches to the toothed cam and holds the Ratchet Pawl outward of the cam until the barrel and frame pinch the pawl to allow the extractor to retract into the cylinder face.

 

[model3sw]

As an aside, WD-40 (Water Displacement Formula #40) was noted as not a lubricant. Truer words were never spoken! It also is a truly sorry penatrent---compared to almost anything else. It also gums up something fierce with age.

Some of our home brew crowd swear by ATF (automatic transmission fluid) mixed with------------------something I don't recall right off. Perhaps one of them will speak up and help you out.

The good news is, if you still play with engines that use a distributor, and moisture condenses inside, a good blast of WD-40 followed by a better blast of compressed air will have you back in business----right now!!

Ralph Tremaine

Hey ... all you old codgers ( me too ) stop ragging on WD-40.

Ralph ... which ATF .... Dexron or Mercon ? ATF smells near as bad as whale oil.

I have NOTHING against KROIL or AMSOIL or any manufacturer's brand gun oil. Everyone has their own preference. If it works, it's good.

Gary Garbrecht swore by Corrosion-X. He gifted me my first can of Corrosion-X out of his several case supply in his office. Gary also liked to use RIG for long term storage. Grips off and wrapped in commercial plastic wrap dry, then then RIG applied with the finger tips and swabs in recessed areas and down the barrel. That worked for me just find except on old nickel guns. I store old Nickel guns DRY.

I found that if the nickel has a damaged spot or nick, over years of long term storage lubricant (any lubricant) will walk under the open area creating veins of lifting nickel when you unwrap it years later.

I have used WD-40 for 40 years to CLEAN and quickly wipe down firearms. Not ONE and I repeat NOT ONE EVER, got rusty or gunked up nor any of the terrible stuff you guys say about it.

Yes, there are better penetratants ... NOW, but 40 years ago that was hot stuff. It's a force of habit and personal preference, however, I do OIL / LUBRICATE with Mobil 1 synthetic oil for the past 25 years ... when the premier recommended lubricant for firearms (at that time and since the 1800s).. whale oil ... became illegal. Boy, was I GLAD about that.

You guys that remember what whale oil smells like ... you know it is a unique and offensive smell. Once you've smelled the odor of whale oil, you will never forget it.

I remember Ron Ogan (RIP) (one of Ron's old letters is in this month's Journal) used to pack his guns in whale oil and thick winter socks, then in foam padded heavy duty security cases when bringing his good to a show.

Some of the old care guides indicate 3 in 1 oil. (there's a blast from the past, too).

For me, synthetic Mobil 1 oil is about as good as it gets. I use the 5w30 but you can choose just about any weight you like. If you'd like to soak your older guns, I use Mobil 1 and with a splash kerosene or acetone. Just know before hand if you have ANY paste blue or touch ups on your guns ... the paste blue and / or other touch ups won't be there after you soak it in Mobil 1 or ATF with acetone.

Signed, "The Unofficial Society to Prevent Defamation of WD-40"

 

[Brian in SLC]

Good timing...I just bought a few gunsmithing tools (screwdrivers, a couple punches and a hammer).

More good news, your rack is original to the pistol (pretty darn sure...you're is an exact copy of mine).

Here's some pic's of the gear:







I note these aren't full strength files...if you want the originals, shoot me a message with your email addy and I'd be happy to send.

Some measurements:

The bushing OD is 0.375". The bushing ID is 0.230".

All parts in the gear appear to be 0.155" in thickness.

The paper under the gear is 1 inch scale, with the little squares being 1/8" each. You might be able to give your gunsmith a print out and maybe they could machine a part based on that.

Not sure how I got so lucky, but, mine is in fantastic shape given its age. Popped it apart (brass punch), out came the parts, popped it back together. Did a deep clean while I was in there. Voila, works like a champ.

Really neat to learn about these old pistols and I appreciate being able to participate in this forum!

Good luck!!

Edit to add...whoa, you got the right gear it appears! Looks like you just need the spring and pivot arm!

 

[mmaher94087]

Sal, excellent save of the WD-40 bash. I use it but wipe everything down. My antiques are stored dry, dry, dry... this is Arizona; 7% humidity - if we are lucky.

A thought occurred to me about a replacement pawl for sw44russ; could a later type pawl be adapted to the toothed gear type extractor? They look very similar but I've never tried this swap. Anyone?

Brian, once again; EXCELLENT photos!!

 

[sw44russ]

Great Post Brian and excellent Pictures; from what I see, the puzzle is getting closer to solved. I was wondering about a little rough patch at the end of the row of 'teeth' near the concave recess; my Cam has a tooth missing so that's the end of that I'd say.

It appears I'm now looking for the complete assembly or the Later Set up in its entirety.

You can see here, the rough bit where the missing tooth was....

As to WD-40; I also have been using it for decades as can be seen here with my Vintage can......now let me see; it says right here....''Loosens Rusty Parts......Frees Sticky Mechanisms''
Now, I'm sure there have been developments in the last 40 or so years; I just cant keep up with everything.....I just bought me one o' them new fangled Double Action Revolvers!!
Please be patient fellers; its sometimes hard to work stuff out down here - everthings upsidedown!!!

Anybody got a junked NM3 or a 1st 44 DA?

 

[Brian in SLC]

Not bad for a point and shoot...

The gear is missing a tooth which also looked like it spalled off part of the captive circle which holds the pivot arm in place.

You have eight teeth, and, the correct gear has 9 (to fit in the rack, which has a place for that extra tooth).

Might still be salvageable with a talented 'smith.

 

[sw44russ]

As you say Brian; the missing Tooth is also part of the recess that retains the Pawl. I think you might be a bit more optimistic than I as to the Cam's saveability! That will be a Tool Steel or similar and it would have to be built up with Weld and reshaped back to original. Could be done but a replacement unit seems more viable if one can be found.

if nothing turns up; I'll show your pics to my Gunsmith and see what he says.
Thanks heaps for going to the trouble of taking your Gun apart and taking those pics; i'm sure they will be an invaluable resource for more than just me.
Not least also, if some of the guys go through their parts boxes, they now know exactly what they're looking for....

BTW, anyone got a picture of the later Type Ejector Assembly?

 

[Brian in SLC]

At least a replacement, given a mostly intact broken gear, would be a great starting point. That's a lot easier than starting from scratch!

Geez, if folks are holdin'...I need a few parts...ha ha. Here's what:

Model #3, First model American 44: a barrel catch spring. Considering trying to drop in the little block and coil spring that the 3rd model Russian uses (also in my model below for some reason). I note I could get a Uberti one at a decent price. Also need a cylinder pin screw.

Model #3, Second model Russian 44: a ratchet pawl and its spring. And a trigger pin.

Anyone?

 

[mmaher94087]

Look for a Micro-welding shop. The broken area can be built up and the cam restored. That way the ratchet pawl would be the only part your Smith would need to make if a later model pawl can't be adapted to fit. The spring is a no-brainer to make.

Ten years ago, I used Advanced Welding in Mountain View, California to weld up a chipped sear on a NM#3 trigger. They laid down a perfect weld bead along the existing sear face. I only needed to dress it with a file, stone it and re-harden/temper the part.

 

[sw44russ]

My Gunsmith has a guy who does his Welding. I know it can be done. So far I'm drawing a blank with the feelers I'm putting out for a Replacement Part, so I will ask my guy and see what he says next time I go to Town.
The Revolver is back together now; with the Cam in the correct position, it went back together easily and now it opens fully as it should and the Extractor doesn't move. At least now the Gun is fireable so when I can, I'll pick some 44 Russian Brass and try some BP Loads through 'er.

Range Report to follow!!

 

[model3sw]

My Gunsmith has a guy who does his Welding. I know it can be done. So far I'm drawing a blank with the feelers I'm putting out for a Replacement Part, so I will ask my guy and see what he says next time I go to Town.
The Revolver is back together now; with the Cam in the correct position, it went back together easily and now it opens fully as it should and the Extractor doesn't move. At least now the Gun is fireable so when I can, I'll pick some 44 Russian Brass and try some BP Loads through 'er.

Range Report to follow!!

You have been given good advice thus far but working that gear over ?? if it were 1942 and we were in the desert being chased by Rommel, we could make that one work. Short of that, I think the best practical move is to find a replacement part. Dave Salo sent me a junk NM3 Target frame for sending him a New/Old stock Revolving Rifle hammer. (those hammers are as scarce as hen's teeth). I'll check the gear on that one.

As to other who need parts. I have a 3rd model Russian for parts and a few others that I haven't looked for in years. That will take me a few days to go search for those.

Get those check books ready, guys !!!

The NM3 Target in 32-44 is very low, SN: 898 or 868. I thought I had it for you. I took it apart it has the newer version with just the hook, like part number 241 on your diagram above. It is not the gear type. that diagram also does not show the bushing.

Are you missing the internal bushing for the gear ? If so, I have the bushing from this one, we'll just measure it to make sure it is "the" correct one ... that is if the type you have and the newer HOOK type have the same center bushing.

The American parts are completely different. The Americans usually blow the big nub on the extractor plats. I've seen a few of those very creatively repaired to be functional, but no bravo points on restoration for those I've seen repaired.

 

[sw44russ]

You have been given good advice thus far but working that gear over ?? if it were 1942 and we were in the desert being chased by Rommel, we could make that one work. Short of that, I think the best practical move is to find a replacement part. Dave Salo sent me a junk NM3 Target frame for sending him a New/Old stock Revolving Rifle hammer. (those hammers are as scarce as hen's teeth). I'll check the gear on that one.

As to other who need parts. I have a 3rd model Russian for parts and a few others that I haven't looked for in years. That will take me a few days to go search for those.

Get those check books ready, guys !!!

The NM3 Target in 32-44 is very low, SN: 898 or 868. I thought I had it for you. I took it apart it has the newer version with just the hook, like part number 241 on your diagram above. It is not the gear type. that diagram also does not show the bushing.

Are you missing the internal bushing for the gear ? If so, I have the bushing from this one, we'll just measure it to make sure it is "the" correct one ... that is if the type you have and the newer HOOK type have the same center bushing.

The American parts are completely different. The Americans usually blow the big nub on the extractor plats. I've seen a few of those very creatively repaired to be functional, but no bravo points on restoration for those I've seen repaired.

Sal, I have the Bushing, though it may or may not be the same as the Bushing for the later Cam. I believe the Gear inside the Extractor Housing is also different from early to later set up and a the matching Gear for the later Cam would have to be used. As far as I can tell, everything else is the same. I'm not at all fussed about which type I use, all it has to do is work the Ejector!! Is that a light at the end of the tunnel I'm seeing?!!!

 

[sw44russ]

The bushing OD is 0.375". The bushing ID is 0.230".

All parts in the gear appear to be 0.155" in thickness.

Pretty safe to say mine will be identical.

 

[Brian in SLC]

As to other who need parts. I have a 3rd model Russian for parts and a few others that I haven't looked for in years. That will take me a few days to go search for those.

Get those check books ready, guys !!!

Ha ha...roger that.

My 3rd model Russian's screws are kinda hurtin'. Joint pivot and joint pivot screw, barrel catch screw especially. Also, butt swivel is missing the ring. The barrel catch spring/block might work for me too for my 1st model American.

Plus the other stuff mentioned up thread...

What I also need is a grip for a NM #3. Bought replacements, but, they are the wrong color and functional, but don't answer the mail (7000 sn range on the left in the photo I posted of the 3 models above...carefully cropped so you can't see the grips...ha ha).

Thanks for looking!