New S&W M&P C.O.R.E. with Trijicon RMR Adjustable LED
- Thread starter mesinge2
- Start date
. Also a laser on the rail.......
Dry Fire
There is a lot of misinformation on how to use an RDS, align it, and practice until it works for you. Here is what worked for me.
First, your dot must be properly aligned with your (now) backup iron sights. Proper alignment of the dot is not above the front sight, unless all you do is target shooting, not self defense.
Self defense handguns have the iron sights aligned so the Point of Impact is directly behind the front sight. Your front sight Point of Aim actually covers the exact spot where you want the bullet to go. Self defense guns are set up this way from the factory. This is one reason so many people shoot low with their new self defense gun. They are holding low. This is why the front sight "mantra" of focusing on the front sight, covering the target with the front sight and pressing, works.
For target shooting, your PoA is just below the target so you can see it (6 o'clock hold). PoI is just above the front sight.
This is different than self defense shooting. If you sight in your red dot above the front sight, then try to use it for fast defensive shooting with iron sights that put the bullet immediately behind wherever the front sight is, you will shoot high using the red dot only.
The red dot will not be any more accurate (i.e., nice, tight target groups) than your iron sights. It may be a little worse. It is faster and much more forgiving than your iron sights (think critical fractions of seconds in self defense shooting) in getting hits on target because the dot alignment does not have to be as precise as iron sight alignment. Therefore, it is for most of us more effective for the type of shooting we are practicing. Dot visible anywhere in the window AND on target, press = hit. When iron sights are not aligned, you don't know how much they are off, a lot or a little. The red dot makes that easier by giving you a significantly larger window of alignment. Also, you can shoot with both eyes open focusing on only one visual plane--the target--and not have to balance the competing interests of pistol sights and the target. When you become good at pointing, your mind will actually easily put the dot where your eyes are focused. The first time this happens, that is, you didn't have to "aim", you just point and the red dot shows up where you are focused, you will say,"SHXT!" THIS WORKS!" See the target; see the dot. Practice will get you there.
As well, much close range self defense shooting is point shooting without using the sights--simply because they are unnecessary at close ranges. However, because your RDS window is so much larger than the visual tunnel you would have to use to align iron sights, you will often be able to use the RDS window as a close range sight, and eventually you will see the dot in there too.
In self defense shooting tight groups are actually counterproductive; a quick burst of 4-5 well aimed shots spread over a 5" area (whether round or vertical), such as the high chest or head, are arguably more effective than two slower, well placed shots on top of each other. Speed is life. Slow to shoot may mean you get hit first. The larger window is especially helpful shooting while moving, when consistent iron sight alignment is next to impossible.
So, get the RDS window on your target. See the dot. Press.
All this can be practiced at home using dry fire so don't waste ammo learning at the range.
Following all dry fire rules, do 25 presentations on various targets around your place. Ignore the window and the dot at first and just use your iron sights as you always do. If you have the dot directly behind the front sight with perfect sight alignment, you won't see it anyway, but you can even have it turned off. You have to adapt your various grip techniques to get that pistol presented the same way every time. After enough presentations over a number of days, the pistol will immediately point "naturally" with your iron sights close to alignment. Remember, the front sight covers your intended PoI.
Now, if you were going to proceed with shooting just your irons (no RDS), continue dry fire until proper sight and target alignment are precise, BUT, with a red dot, you skip this step.
With natural pointing, your RDS window will be on target. Now find the dot in the window and press wherever the dot is, ignoring your iron sights. You will hit at self defense ranges. If you can't see the dot, your alignment is definitely off enough that you will likely miss. Iron sights would be at least as bad.
The beauty of the RDS is, if in live fire you fire a fast round on paper using only the RDS and the dot was not aligned with the irons, but say toward the upper right of the screen, and you get your hit, STOP. Take a breath, relax. Use your irons to point directly at your previous RDS hit, cover it with your front sight (red dot will not be visible because it is right behind your front sight) and press. Two shots together. But which was faster and simpler? Ahhhhh, the advantage of the red dot. And this exercise confirms that wherever the red dot is, that is where the bullet will go. Precise irons alignment should do the exact same thing, just slower and with more effort. Keep the irons: they are now accurate backups for you.
Dry fire. Dry Fire. Dry Fire.
There is a lot of misinformation on how to use an RDS, align it, and practice until it works for you. Here is what worked for me.
First, your dot must be properly aligned with your (now) backup iron sights. Proper alignment of the dot is not above the front sight, unless all you do is target shooting, not self defense.
Self defense handguns have the iron sights aligned so the Point of Impact is directly behind the front sight. Your front sight Point of Aim actually covers the exact spot where you want the bullet to go. Self defense guns are set up this way from the factory. This is one reason so many people shoot low with their new self defense gun. They are holding low. This is why the front sight "mantra" of focusing on the front sight, covering the target with the front sight and pressing, works.
For target shooting, your PoA is just below the target so you can see it (6 o'clock hold). PoI is just above the front sight.
This is different than self defense shooting. If you sight in your red dot above the front sight, then try to use it for fast defensive shooting with iron sights that put the bullet immediately behind wherever the front sight is, you will shoot high using the red dot only.
The red dot will not be any more accurate (i.e., nice, tight target groups) than your iron sights. It may be a little worse. It is faster and much more forgiving than your iron sights (think critical fractions of seconds in self defense shooting) in getting hits on target because the dot alignment does not have to be as precise as iron sight alignment. Therefore, it is for most of us more effective for the type of shooting we are practicing. Dot visible anywhere in the window AND on target, press = hit. When iron sights are not aligned, you don't know how much they are off, a lot or a little. The red dot makes that easier by giving you a significantly larger window of alignment. Also, you can shoot with both eyes open focusing on only one visual plane--the target--and not have to balance the competing interests of pistol sights and the target. When you become good at pointing, your mind will actually easily put the dot where your eyes are focused. The first time this happens, that is, you didn't have to "aim", you just point and the red dot shows up where you are focused, you will say,"SHXT!" THIS WORKS!" See the target; see the dot. Practice will get you there.
As well, much close range self defense shooting is point shooting without using the sights--simply because they are unnecessary at close ranges. However, because your RDS window is so much larger than the visual tunnel you would have to use to align iron sights, you will often be able to use the RDS window as a close range sight, and eventually you will see the dot in there too.
In self defense shooting tight groups are actually counterproductive; a quick burst of 4-5 well aimed shots spread over a 5" area (whether round or vertical), such as the high chest or head, are arguably more effective than two slower, well placed shots on top of each other. Speed is life. Slow to shoot may mean you get hit first. The larger window is especially helpful shooting while moving, when consistent iron sight alignment is next to impossible.
So, get the RDS window on your target. See the dot. Press.
All this can be practiced at home using dry fire so don't waste ammo learning at the range.
Following all dry fire rules, do 25 presentations on various targets around your place. Ignore the window and the dot at first and just use your iron sights as you always do. If you have the dot directly behind the front sight with perfect sight alignment, you won't see it anyway, but you can even have it turned off. You have to adapt your various grip techniques to get that pistol presented the same way every time. After enough presentations over a number of days, the pistol will immediately point "naturally" with your iron sights close to alignment. Remember, the front sight covers your intended PoI.
Now, if you were going to proceed with shooting just your irons (no RDS), continue dry fire until proper sight and target alignment are precise, BUT, with a red dot, you skip this step.
With natural pointing, your RDS window will be on target. Now find the dot in the window and press wherever the dot is, ignoring your iron sights. You will hit at self defense ranges. If you can't see the dot, your alignment is definitely off enough that you will likely miss. Iron sights would be at least as bad.
The beauty of the RDS is, if in live fire you fire a fast round on paper using only the RDS and the dot was not aligned with the irons, but say toward the upper right of the screen, and you get your hit, STOP. Take a breath, relax. Use your irons to point directly at your previous RDS hit, cover it with your front sight (red dot will not be visible because it is right behind your front sight) and press. Two shots together. But which was faster and simpler? Ahhhhh, the advantage of the red dot. And this exercise confirms that wherever the red dot is, that is where the bullet will go. Precise irons alignment should do the exact same thing, just slower and with more effort. Keep the irons: they are now accurate backups for you.
Dry fire. Dry Fire. Dry Fire.
Last edited:
OP
mesinge2
Member
Thank you CB3. I saved that post. It will be a great help.
Magload
US Veteran
Sorry i mentioned the dot being on the top of my front sight as I am a target shooter. Not a six o'clock hold either as I shoot different targets at different distances and want the bullet to hit right on the top of my front sight. I try to use the smallest red dot I can get and buy turning the brightness down I can get the dot to look petty small and shoot it like a scope. I didn't mean to miss lead you I forget probably 90% or more shooters here are SD shooters. For SD I only use iron sights an my 40 Shield and 1911 R1. Dots are not allowed for IDPA so I keep those two guns open sights only. Don
OP
mesinge2
Member
Actually, I want it for USPSA Open.
I use these two below for SD as well as my duty pistols. I chose the M&P CORE to get into competition because of my familiarity with the platform.
Magload
US Veteran
Actually, I want it for USPSA Open.
I use these two below for SD as well as my duty pistols. I chose the M&P CORE to get into competition because of my familiarity with the platform.
I am leaving the Deltapoint on my 40 CORE for the same reason I like the fact that I can shoot it in USPSA. I have a 9 Pro that will be my race gun but not sure the UltraDot is going to work well for that. Don
Many reflex sight do have some amount of parallax issues but most do not effect bullet placement enough to matter at normal speed shoot distance's and target types. Trijicons are rather solid in general but you can check your at home buy making small circles with the muzzle and watching the dit on the target . Some brands will give some left to right only movement , some up and down , some both ways but all should still work fine for your needs .
I have hunted with red dots tube optics since '78 on revolvers . First one lasted 20 years before die'n on a 8" 357 DW. Now on a 44mag DW with a burris 3moa 135 speed dot and will make 100 yards groups tight enough for heart or upper neck shots . 3 to 4" groups
Wifes core with a rmo5g - http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/...4_zps2e637d25.jpg?1435235680949&1435235709818
My DW 44- http://rs331.pbsrc.com/albums/l444/hardluk1/102_0451.jpg~c100
I have hunted with red dots tube optics since '78 on revolvers . First one lasted 20 years before die'n on a 8" 357 DW. Now on a 44mag DW with a burris 3moa 135 speed dot and will make 100 yards groups tight enough for heart or upper neck shots . 3 to 4" groups
Wifes core with a rmo5g - http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/...4_zps2e637d25.jpg?1435235680949&1435235709818
My DW 44- http://rs331.pbsrc.com/albums/l444/hardluk1/102_0451.jpg~c100
Last edited:
I love the old Dan Wessons. I have a .357 with three barrels, although one is a snubby I never use. With a long barrel and their shroud system, they are potentially very, very accurate no matter what sight system you use.
Totally understand . The 357 has a 4" barrel I bought it back in '78 but it took me some 29 years to install it . The 44mag was a 6" barreled fun gun when I grew up back in sw florida as the 357 with heavy bullets was all that was needed and lighter !! Not until I picked up a CZ 8" barrel and shroud used and cheap did I hunt with it . My wife has a 6" 357 dw and we have a .22lr version too.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2015
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 2
Great gun with RMR06!!!
Great gun!!! Now with the trijicon RMR06 I love it more!! Here's a video of me shooting it with the trijicon mounted
Great gun!!! Now with the trijicon RMR06 I love it more!! Here's a video of me shooting it with the trijicon mounted
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2015
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 2
OP
mesinge2
Member
I changed the grips to the Hogue Hybrid backstrap, added a Storm Lake Extended ported barrel and a Apex Tactical Competition Action Enhancement Kit to reduce the trigger to 3lbs. And I picked up a blackhawk holster for competition.
GOING TO THE RANGE ON TUESDAY!!!
SUPER EXCITED!!!!!
GOING TO THE RANGE ON TUESDAY!!!
SUPER EXCITED!!!!!
Magload
US Veteran
Sweet gun.
Got the RMR 06 on my Pro Core .40. Not all red dot sights mentioned "FULLY" cowitness. I have a Burris FF III also and like it on other guns. But it only allows partial view of the rear sight white dots through the window on the Pro CORE. Data I got on the Leupolds said they would be the same +/-. If you never plan to use the irons as back up no issue though. In that case the Burris FF III is an excellent sight at a good price. I have mine mounted on a muzzleloader now.
Magload
US Veteran
My Delta Fully cowitness with no problem. I like being able to use the open sights sometimes. Don
No need to remove the sight for general (range) cleaning. Real filth from rolling in the woods might justify it. Removing mine annually to replace the battery never changes zero, but those two small mounting screws and the corresponding threaded holes may not lend themselves to repeated in/out machinations without wear, resulting in a loose sight.
Re: RDS Cowitnessing with irons
Three factors affect it:
1. The height of the base of the RDS (and therefore how low the bottom of the window is).
2. How deep the cut in the slide is for the RDS.
3. How tall the iron sights are. Different manufacturers make different height sights. Also, you don't want sights that are too high as they will block the window. Cowitnessing should be in the lower 1/3 (max)-1/4 (minimum) of the window.
Any one of these items being out of balance with the others will degrade or eliminate cowitnessing. Check and double check before you buy so you won't be disappointed. There is no added value to not cowitnessing. Actually, a lack of of cowitnessing represents improper parts/installation.
Re: RDS Cowitnessing with irons
Three factors affect it:
1. The height of the base of the RDS (and therefore how low the bottom of the window is).
2. How deep the cut in the slide is for the RDS.
3. How tall the iron sights are. Different manufacturers make different height sights. Also, you don't want sights that are too high as they will block the window. Cowitnessing should be in the lower 1/3 (max)-1/4 (minimum) of the window.
Any one of these items being out of balance with the others will degrade or eliminate cowitnessing. Check and double check before you buy so you won't be disappointed. There is no added value to not cowitnessing. Actually, a lack of of cowitnessing represents improper parts/installation.
OP
mesinge2
Member
All shooting at 15 yards with Winchester White Box 165 grain ammo. This was the lightest recoiling 40 I have ever shot and compared to my Full Size M&P 40 the recoil felt like half. The ports on this barrel really seem to work well. And the trigger is about 2.5lbs, uber light. I am very happy with the CORE now. The final target was with me shooting more slowly and taking my time. The others I was shooting quicker.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB2ugvkGhHs#[/ame]
https://youtu.be/WB2ugvkGhHs
If you notice in this video, the last mag I slow down. WHY??
Because the gun after 400 rounds was so hot I burned my left hand thumb on the takedown lever. Uber hot!!
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkvJE65EKoU#[/ame]
https://youtu.be/xkvJE65EKoU
And this is shooting more slowly and taking my time:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB2ugvkGhHs#[/ame]
https://youtu.be/WB2ugvkGhHs
If you notice in this video, the last mag I slow down. WHY??
Because the gun after 400 rounds was so hot I burned my left hand thumb on the takedown lever. Uber hot!!
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkvJE65EKoU#[/ame]
https://youtu.be/xkvJE65EKoU
And this is shooting more slowly and taking my time:
Similar threads
- Locked
