new Sport 15 mislabled: 1/9 v. 1/8 5R = not happy

[Rastoff]

What will the 1-8" do that the 1-9 will not do. I do not have an AR but am thinking about the Sport. I want to shoot 55gr rounds mostly, but if it stabilizes the heavier rounds as well as the 55's then what's the big deal?

As has been stated previously, it depends on the level of accuracy you're going for.

If you want to put bullet after bullet through the same hole, you'll need to match the load and bullet mass to the rifling and length of your rifle. Of course if that's true, the AR is probably not the right gun either. However, if you're like most of us and 2MOA (2" at 100 yards) groups are good enough, the 1:8 will serve you just as well as the 1:9 twist. The gun will shoot better than that, but when you add the human factor, groups open up a little.

 

[copemech]

Well I have to correct this right now.

We know what S&W said. Now Ginger and Mary Ann has been brought up. The thread is now complete.

Which one has the 1:9 twist?

 

[uncledoggle]

Which one has the 1:9 twist?

Who cares? Although I'd personally go for the slowest twist available. Possibly 1:12. Old age you understand.

 

[sgtsandman]

Which one has the 1:9 twist?

Does it really matter in this instance? Seems to me that either is a win!

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

OP here - sorry for the delay with an update

I called S&W but they were closed for the holidays, so I emailed them and got this:

From: Smith & Wesson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:32 AM
To: Chas Howard
Subject: Automatic reply: Sport 15 SKU 811038

We will be closed through January 1st for the holiday season. Please contact us again after the new year and we will be more than happy to help you with your request.

Sincerely,

The Smith & Wesson Team

I wrongly thought they'd contact me after they returned to work - wrong. So I sent it again:

From:Chas Howard
Subject:RE: Sport 15 SKU 811038

So I've realized that I actually needed to re-send this. Please see my 12/30/14 email below.

Thanks.

And got this:

From: SW Level 1 [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 1:20 PM
To: Chas Howard
Subject: RE: RE: Sport 15 SKU 811038 (LTK1117701319034X)


Reference number: LTK1117701319034X Please use this ticket number in any correspondence with us.
Subject: RE: Sport 15 SKU 811038

Dear Customer,

The sport barrel has changed to a SAAMI 6-groove, 1:9 twist rifling and meets the same acceptance standards as the original 5R 1:8 twist rifling.

The 1:9 twist and groove pattern, which has been extensively tested by agencies and departments throughout the United States, is used on all M&P15 Sport models, as well as our law enforcement M&P15 models.

The change was effective December 2012. We are unable to change out barrels.

Smith & Wesson values all of its consumers and are happy to have assisted you to the best of our ability today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance.

Sincerely,

Rob

So I'm writing them back ('level 2' I suppose?) mentioning:

• I sure as **** hopes it "meets the same acceptance standards"
• I don't care what other agencies have tested or use this barrel
• S&W is "unable to change out barrels"???
• Never addressed their mistake

I'll be polite and report back.

 

[WineCrafter]

I'm not posting this as the gospel truth, simply sharing something I read a year or so ago regarding the change in barrels.
It seems to have originated as a result of demand for the Sport in as much as it was/is such a good value. I can't remember the exact number but the article stated S&W was X amount of units behind in production to meet demand. The 5r barrel, produced by Thompson Center, was supposedly a bottleneck in production due to the required machining process so they switched to the 1:9. The article also purport that they still maintain the Melonite treatment but call it something else as a result of Glock having proprietary ownership of the word but not the process.
Again, not gospel, just sharing something I read that sounds reasonable if not factual.

 

[schgsd]

That sounds perfectly reasonable. If I were making a product and a vendor couldn't keep supplying one of the pieces, I'd be looking to find a replacement.

 

[AGoyette]

If they don't make the 1:8 5R barrel then how come my VTAC II supposedly has one (I will now have to go downstairs and look at the barrel). It was purchased with in the past year.

 

[WineCrafter]

They still make the 1:8. It's just not used on the Sport any more.

 

[Rastoff]

Don't confuse a 1:8 regular barrel with a 1:8 5R barrel. They are different. As I understand it, the 5R has a progressive twist. This means it twists faster toward the muzzle. The over all aggregate is equivalent to a 1:8 though it's slower in some parts and faster in others.

I don't know if they still make it or not. I'm just commenting on the fact that a 5R is different from a regular 1:8 twist.

 

[cyphertext]

If they don't make the 1:8 5R barrel then how come my VTAC II supposedly has one (I will now have to go downstairs and look at the barrel). It was purchased with in the past year.

The 1:8 5R barrel on your VTAC II is different than the 1:8 5R barrel that was on the Sport... Made of different grades of steel.

They still make both varieties, just they don't use one on the Sport. Now the 15T is the only one that I am aware of that comes with the 1:8 5R barrel made from 4140 steel. The MOE Mid and VTAC II have 4150 steel.

What do the different grades of steel mean? Absolutely nothing to 99.9% of us. 4150 has just a little more carbon.

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

so...I sent this response to S&W

I will let you all know what happens next...

Hi Folks:

I'm not okay with the February 16 response from "Rob" on several of points, so I'm not hesitating to contact you as I require further assistance:

· It is not relevant that my mislabeled/mis-advertised rifle's barrel "meets the same acceptance standards" as the original 5R 1:8 twist rifling – the labeling on the rifle said it was the 5R 1:8 which is what I wanted and was paying for.

· It is not relevant what agencies have tested and use barrels like my mislabeled/mis-advertised rifle's barrel.

· The assertion by a premier firearms manufacturer that "We are unable to change out barrels" is simply not believable. If the statement had been "We don't think this is a big deal, and don't want to bother with it", I would not be satisfied, though I would believe it.

· You "…are happy to have assisted you to the best of our ability today"? Good grief – no assistance was rendered, and I don't think the response was to the best of S&Ws ability.

· The response fails to address the mislabeled/mis-advertised rifle; I do not think there was any purposeful plan to mislabel/mis-advertise, but the practical impact on me is that I paid for what I wanted, and got something else.

I am not satisfied and would like a further review and real answers.

Thank you.

 

[gm272gs]

I wouldn't get in a twist about it if it shot straight, but that's just me.

This is proof that most people who are happy with something never say much, but one disgruntled customer usually will tell everyone they know.

For what it's worth - If I were in a position of any importance at Smith & Wesson - I would have just replaced your barrel.

C'est La Vie.

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

gm272gs - I appreciate your view about "not getting twisted about it" (and others have posted similarly)...and certainly agree with your "If I were in a position of any importance at Smith & Wesson - I would have just replaced your barrel." Operationally, I could probably never tell. That said, if I want a 5R, I want a 5R (I own one S&W and one Remington now). Why do we buy S&W? You guessed it - because we want S&W. Little things matter to me in firearms, and I think many are the same. I recently passed up a great deal on a Springfield 1911 'cause it had ugly/unnecessary "target" sights...not what I wanted. Does a 7 v. 6 shot matter so some S&W revolver fans - sure, both work fine, but one or the other is a "deal killer" (PS - I prefer 6, and old school spur hammers). S&W gets my business because I trust their products and their quality, and when a firearm absolutely, positively must work - it's one of my S&Ws I depend on.

I hope they will make this right.

I'm going to grab a beer and watch funny TV now.....I'll be back.

 

[cyphertext]

What is going to make you happy? If you say "re-barrel the rifle", then based on the outcome from others, prepare to be less than pleased. S&W will probably offer to refund your money... will that make you happy?

 

[SIERRA HOTEL AT3]

When I first considered getting a AR 15 a friend showed me his Sport and explained the details of the 1:8 5R barrel. I was quite impressed with the Sport in general. So I did what I always do whenever I consider spending hundreds of dollars. I went online and did some research and read numerous online reviews. Took only a short time online to learn that the Sport now came with the 1:9 barrel. So... I did some more research and decided that the 1:9 barrel would not be a deal breaker for me and picked up my Sport about a week later. The paper handguard covers were not on the rifle I purchased but had they been and shown it to have the 1:8 5R that would have thrown up a red flag for me and I would have looked closer at what I was considering to purchase. Why? Because I had done my research and knew that this was no longer the barrel on the Sport. When you purchased your Sport there was two people that made a mistake. The guy at S&W that put the wrong paper covers on the rifle and you for not paying attention to what you were buying. Ever heard of the phrase "Buyer Beware"? I don't mind contacting customer support at any business that I feel that I have a legitimate complaint, but on this issue you are just as much to blame ( in my opinion), and if you wanted a rifle with 5R you should have done a little research and bought a rifle with 5R instead of the Sport...

 

[ClayCow]

I would think the customer, some of which go window shopping, should be able to trust whats written on the label. If its wrong, it shouldbe fixed. Im a big researcher myself, but ii woildnt consider it my fault if the manhfacturer mislabrled.

 

[MichiganScott]

I would think the customer, some of which go window shopping, should be able to trust whats written on the label. If its wrong, it shouldbe fixed. Im a big researcher myself, but ii woildnt consider it my fault if the manhfacturer mislabrled.

If they no longer make the barrel they can't replace it. If they replace it with a barrel from one of their more expensive model that still uses the 5R rifling, it would no longer be a Sport and they would set a precedent. It's cheaper to irritate a couple of customers.

Ask for your money back.

 

[ClayCow]

If they no longer make the barrel they can't replace it. If they replace it with a barrel from one of their more expensive model that still uses the 5R rifling, it would no longer be a Sport and they would set a precedent. It's cheaper to irritate a couple of customers.

Ask for your money back.

Yea. Something. I think the OP ended up with offer of money back or some t shirt. He seemed happy enough.

 

[uncledoggle]

Might want to consider contacting S&W and asking if they would be willing to take the gun back at the price you paid on a trade for a model that has the barrel that you desire. With you, of course, paying the difference.

Hopefully you haven't put a few hundred rounds through it yet.

 

[cyphertext]

Yea. Something. I think the OP ended up with offer of money back or some t shirt. He seemed happy enough.

You are thinking of the other guy who got a rifle case... The OP has not received anything, but I am not sure what would make him happy at this point other than a barrel change.

 

[cyphertext]

If they no longer make the barrel they can't replace it. If they replace it with a barrel from one of their more expensive model that still uses the 5R rifling, it would no longer be a Sport and they would set a precedent. It's cheaper to irritate a couple of customers.

Ask for your money back.

I think that is the rub, as they do still make the barrel. It is on the 15T... they just no longer put the barrel on the Sport.

ETA... Looks like I might be wrong on this... the website shows 1:8 twist, but no mention of 5R rifling on the 15T.

ETA again... S&W customer service confirmed that the 15T does still have the 1:8, 5R 4140 barrel... so they do still make them.

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

S&W emailed me

I received an email this morning to provide info so they can send a shipping label & box. I did so. They want to evaluate it...but did not say what they intend to do beyond that. I thanked them and will send it back ASAP.

 

[cyphertext]

I received an email this morning to provide info so they can send a shipping label & box. I did so. They want to evaluate it...but did not say what they intend to do beyond that. I thanked them and will send it back ASAP.

Interesting... ship it back to us so that we can say "yep, we put a 1:9 twist barrel on it"...

 

[brucev]

Re: OP. Don't fault you. You have every right to expect the item described to be the item in the box you bought. No reason you should be held accountable for S&W failing to make themselves clear. Hope this matter is resolved to your satisfaction. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[uncledoggle]

Three pages. 115, make that 116, posts. Almost two months of suspense, and no solution to the original problem. Whatever the final outcome may be, I doubt that it will be influenced by what is said in this thread.

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

Sheesh!

Interesting... ship it back to us so that we can say "yep, we put a 1:9 twist barrel on it"...

**** posts* like this one do nothing. I am trying to keep the S&W enthusiast community informed; I think that's why forums like this exist - info exchange, etc., right? S&Ws invitation to send it back on their dime to "evaluate" is a step in the process. I'm okay with that. They will let me know their thoughts, and it will go from there.

*now if that post was meant as a funny, okay, it could be read as kinda funny...but that's what all those dang smiley faces are for! See there - I even used one...and it's my rifle with the issue! Doh!

 

[schgsd]

Where is someone with a 15T who can tell us what it says on the barrel?

 

[cyphertext]

**** posts* like this one do nothing. I am trying to keep the S&W enthusiast community informed; I think that's why forums like this exist - info exchange, etc., right? S&Ws invitation to send it back on their dime to "evaluate" is a step in the process. I'm okay with that. They will let me know their thoughts, and it will go from there.

*now if that post was meant as a funny, okay, it could be read as kinda funny...but that's what all those dang smiley faces are for! See there - I even used one...and it's my rifle with the issue! Doh!

Well, it was meant as kinda funny, and folks on the board who know me know that...

However, what is there to evaluate? Do you think that S&W is not aware of what barrel they are currently putting on the Sport? Do you think yours is the only one that left the factory as a 1:9 barrel? You aren't even the only one that had this complaint on this board. At this stage in the game, S&W is aware that they mislabeled some rifles, and they are aware of what they have offered other customers... either a refund, or some magazines, or a rifle case, etc. for your inconvenience if you choose to keep it anyway.

 

[ptgarcia]

If I were S&W I would offer to refund your money or toss in some free goodies, but I would not swap barrels. The label was wrong, big deal, it happens all the time. If you don't like it, return and get something else.