New to me nickel 19 no dash, and some questions for the experts

[glshuck]

Picked up this 1960 Nickel 19 no dash from my FFL today, courtesy of the forum classifieds. Not my best photography, as I was nothing short of giddy to post this on the forum and get you all's opinions. The gun is in phenomenal condition. I wouldn't hesitate to call it mint. If you see something in the photos that looks like anything more than a swirl mark, it is either just the lighting, or the photos.

I'd like to preface this by saying that forum user blueandnickel was excellent to work with, and I am very satisfied with the purchase regardless of if some of these things are suspect. Kevin (blueandnickel) was extremely honest about what he knew about the gun. Although my current opinion is that this is 100% legit, if anything questionable about this gun comes up, I am sure Kevin had nothing to do with it. He was very transparent about what he knew, and at no point in time did he try to sway me into forming a certain opinion.

According to Kevin, this gun was purchased approximately 17 years ago from prominent dealer David Carroll. My understanding is that David was and is a very reputable guy, enough so that I noticed he was credited in the 5th edition. I am not sure if he is an active user or not, and there is an extremely low chance that he remembers this one passing through his hands beings as I know he's had a lot.

The biggest question I have is in regards to the red ramp sight, and its originality. When the gun was posted on the classifieds, I noticed it had a red ramp front sight, but no white outline rear. This is something I've always known to look for as a possible indicator the red ramp was done aftermarket, as for the most part I know those features to go hand in hand.

The box appears to be correct in style. As I understand it, this would have been kind of a transitional era for Smith, between the earlier gold boxes, and the newer two piece solid outline blue boxes. As you can see in the photos, the end of the box was stamped with the model, and does not have a label. The serial number is written on the bottom of the box in grease pencil, with some a few additional marks. This is seemingly era correct as well, as I've found a few pictures posted of similar boxes labelled in a similar manner.

Along with the serial number, "RR" is written in grease pencil on the bottom of the box- seemingly indicating red ramp front sight. There is also a line of text that seems to read OSS, 055, or 059. I am not sure what that would mean. There is no visible difference between the grease pencil that was used to write the serial, and where it says OSS / RR. I am not a forensic investigator, but it sure looks like it was written at the same time, with the same utensil, with the same handwriting. If you look closely at the photos, you will notice that the second R of RR is a little bit brighter. This appears to be due to the fact that there is a grease spot on the box where the second R is, which is making it appear more prominently.

This doesn't fully confirm the RR to be a factory option in my eyes, as some grease pencil marks on the bottom of a box seem like something that would be easy to fake. On the logo end of the box opposite of the silver stamped model, it appears that either tape, a label, or something else was ripped off. This could indicate that the box is not original to the gun and someone has tried to hide it, or it could simply have been a price tag or something from retailer that someone decided to remove.

I would be curious to know if any of you guys can verify which side of the box a label would have been placed, if they even had one. If anyone has knowledge on what the grease pen markings in this era should look like, what OSS/055 may mean, etc, it would be much appreciated.

The gun has been factory lettered, which indicated this shipped to a hardware store in 1960, and denotes a nickel finish, 4" barrel, and goncolo alves target grips with no comments on the red ramp front sight. I have heard in the past that sometimes specific things need to be inquired about when sending in a letter if you want them to be looked into. I would be curious your thoughts on that. I would send in to have the gun re-lettered, specifically asking about the sight if there was thought that it may be something Smith can verify.

I have done my best to photograph the front sight. Again, I am new to the game and am not a reliable expert, but visually the cut for the insert seems to be very uniform. I notice no signs of finish touch up in the area. If it was done by a Smith, they did a good job. The red insert itself seems to have shrunk ever so slightly over the years, which I would assume indicates that it is from long ago regardless of whether original or not. The sight pins have no marks on them, or giveaways that someone would have removed and replaced the front sight. It all looks very factory to my untrained eyes.

The next question is likely easier. As stated in the factory letter, the gun received goncalo alves target grips. The current grips appear to be era correct diamond targets, and are in excellent condition. They are black washered, and are not numbered to the gun. From the classifieds photos, they were shiny enough that I suspected they had been refinished. In person, they are not as high gloss as they looked in the photos. If any finish work was done on them, they also did an excellent job, as the channel around the checkering shows no signs of any clear coat over spray etc, nor does the checkering. I am thinking that these have just been cleaned up and oiled, but have not been refinished. You guy's thoughts there would be much appreciated.

In addition to the finish of the grips, I am curious as to if you guys think the current stocks are goncalo. Some of you guys are experts on ID'ing the wood. I am not. I had one forum user tell me that he thinks they are rosewood rather than goncalo, but I know it can be hard to distinguish between the two.

All in all, I am one happy camper regardless of what the determinations here end up being. It is a beautiful gun that I am very happy to own.

 

[Model19man]

I don't know the answers you are looking for but the revolver is sweet!

 

[weatherby]

Grips look like Rosewood to me

 

[Hair Trigger]

Grips look like Rosewood to me

I think they are walnut. They are gorgeous, whatever they're made of. The rest of the gun ain't no slouch either. To the OP, I'd say don't worry about whether or not the front sight is original. The gun is beautiful just like it is.

 

[glshuck]

I think they are walnut. They are gorgeous, whatever they're made of. The rest of the gun ain't no slouch either. To the OP, I'd say don't worry about whether or not the front sight is original. The gun is beautiful just like it is.

I'm certainly not losing sleep over any of it. The gun is fantastic & easily the nicest smith I own so far. I'm just a nerd, and figuring out these little mysteries is part of the fun for me.

 

[glshuck]

Some better photos after a wipe down. Still managed to finger print it. Lol.

I'll take the grips off later tonight and take pics of the inside if that helps.

 

[DARE]

Very nice gun, congratulations.
Your box looks legit to me.
Red Ramp White Outline sights were available as a special order. Probably you could order Red Ramp but not White Outline.
They had grips called Oversize Walnut Target Stocks.
OSS might stand for Over Size Stocks.
Here is my gun, box and letter. My gun is a .357 Combat Magnum or Pre-Model 19 from 1956. I'm told that the early guns had Goncalo Alves grips. My letter calls mine Walnut.

 

[glshuck]

Very nice gun, congratulations.
Your box looks legit to me.
Red Ramp White Outline sights were available as a special order. Probably you could order Red Ramp but not White Outline.
They had grips called Oversize Walnut Target Stocks.
OSS might stand for Over Size Stocks.
Here is my gun, box and letter. My gun is a .357 Combat Magnum or Pre-Model 19 from 1956. I'm told that the early guns had Goncalo Alves grips. My letter calls mine Walnut.

Wow! What a beauty! Quite early too if I'm thinking right.

That's the best idea for what OSS might be that I've heard so far. I haven't found much information on option markings from this era. I am assuming there would have been a marking for WO if it was to have the white outline rear. My assumption is that it was ordered with just the red ramp.

 

[glshuck]

Well, I took the grips off, and rather than giving me answers, I think I have more questions.

I didn't notice an extreme contrast with them on the gun, but on the bench, the right panel is distinctly different in the natural color of the wood. Again, I am no expert, but I've been around a lot of guitars and the right panel screams rosewood to me. The left panel is? well. I don't know. What say ye?

It is surprising how good of a bookmatch it is for what appears to be two different types of woods, and at a minimum is two different cuts. The fitment is almost too good to be true. Either Smith took care to fit these a lot better back in the day, or maybe more likely, someone trued them up and did a refin. Either way, I kinda like it.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I also Love those Grips!
But - they look almost too good for a gun this old!

 

[glshuck]

I also Love those Grips!
But - they look almost too good for a gun this old!

I can't say that I disagree. Certainly oddly shiny. At a minimum I think they've had finish work. Thankfully the gun is in good enough shape that it doesn't look wildly out of place. Escutcheons seem to be correct.

My best guess is that they are both the same type of wood, cut from the same slab. Otherwise, someone won the wood grain lottery with that bookmatch. The porosity is very similar. I am leaning rosewood, just because I haven't seen goncalo that is that dark?

 

[SWFan27]

I can't say that I disagree. Certainly oddly shiny. At a minimum I think they've had finish work. Thankfully the gun is in good enough shape that it doesn't look wildly out of place. Escutcheons seem to be correct.

My best guess is that they are both the same type of wood, cut from the same slab. Otherwise, someone won the wood grain lottery with that bookmatch. The porosity is very similar. I am leaning rosewood, just because I haven't seen goncalo that is that dark?

Being a guitar guy myself, those look like rosewood to me as well.

 

[Gun Relics]

- I would ask S & W Historical to re-check some things.

- The box is correct but unlikely original to the gun. There would be no reason to remove the sticker (which you can see was done) except because the SN didn't match the gun. There never was a gold box on the Model 19.

- My first thought was they are walnut. All of mine have walnut. S and W was using walnut on the Model 19's so I would check to see if the GA was an error. I think the grips are a pair, just different boards, not unusual, and they gave you the premium wood at that. It's a nice grain whatever it is. My thought is it's been clear coated and not by the factory. Below is a pic of typical 19 grips from the inside.

- I know the invoices do specify red ramp on some orders, I just don't know if they were always specified but I would think they would be if it's a special order item.

- The sight looks exactly like a Smith and Wesson factory red ramp sight. It may have been added afterward but personally I think it looks great and I certainly wouldn't think it would detract from the gun. I wish all of mine had them.

- We're all a little jealous!

 

[glshuck]

- I would ask S & W Historical to re-check some things.

- The box is correct but unlikely original to the gun. There would be no reason to remove the sticker (which you can see was done) except because the SN didn't match the gun. There never was a gold box on the Model 19.

- My first thought was they are walnut. All of mine have walnut. S and W was using walnut on the Model 19's so I would check to see if the GA was an error. I think the grips are a pair, just different boards, not unusual, and they gave you the premium wood at that. It's a nice grain whatever it is. My thought is it's been clear coated and not by the factory. Below is a pic of typical 19 grips from the inside.

- I know the invoices do specify red ramp on some orders, I just don't know if they were always specified but I would think they would be if it's a special order item.

- The sight looks exactly like a Smith and Wesson factory red ramp sight. It may have been added afterward but personally I think it looks great and I certainly wouldn't think it would detract from the gun. I wish all of mine had them.

- We're all a little jealous!

That all sounds pretty reasonable to me. The box label or lack their of/signs of removal does seem suspicious. I am not totally sure that it isn't original though. From what I can tell, the paper labels going on boxes in this era were not serialized. Some of the boxes appear to not have recieved a paper label at all. If it did recieve a paper label, it was likely non-descript similar to DARE's label on his pre 19. It also appears that Smith was not consistent in which side of the box they placed the label on, as I have seen some examples with the label over the silver text denoting model & barrel length. Trying not to be naive here, but I think it is a real possibility the label fell off, was tore off, or just wasn't a smith label at all. If they went through the trouble to do that, the grease pen would have had to be faked as well. That part is probably easy, but the bottom of the box would have likely been grease penned to a different serial. I don't know that they'd have been able to remove the original grease pen to an undetectable level. I suppose it's possible the bottom of the box is from a later model that never recieved grease pen at all. I know there were some changes to the text on the interior of the box over the years. I guess I'll cross reference that to see the liklihood of the box bottom being from a later era.

I did find a sold listing to a '56 gun on GI that appears to have a box of the same variety. The grease pen on the bottom indicates a couple of special order features, and is notated just how this one is with both RR and OSS listed as options. The label is placed on the stamped side, over the stamp.

Walnut on the grips seems plausible as well if it was standard at the time.

I really lean towards the sight being factory original. Again, most of you would know better than me, but it doesn't look cut in, and it seems like it'd be easier to swap the whole sight being pinned than it would be to cut one. Maybe this is achievable without marring the pins whatsoever, I do not know.

I am also leaning towards the grips having recieved finish work. The only thing that makes me think otherwise is the fact that the groove around the checkering has no sign of any sort of laquer in it. If someone did re-fin, they were very careful.

At the end of the day, I really don't care if this thing has been worked over a bit. I have enough questions here to think that it is unlikely it all checks out, but at the same time it seems that it'd have been a whole lot of effort as well as taken expert level knowledge of how smith would have done things at the time to even fake. I'm not sure what is more likely at the end of the day, but I do think a re-letter is looking worth the time & money.

GI listing for reference.
Smith & Wesson Pre Model 19 .357 Combat Magnum 1st Year FULLY OPTIONED & Complete Mfd. 1956 HOUSTON TEXAS SHIPPED ANIB

 

[Vtgw938]

The stocks are Rosewood.

 

[RKmesa]

The gun looks right to me... Not all guns that shipped with a red ramp shipped with the white outline rear sight. All of my Model 19 marked CM boxes of that era did not have a label affixed - rather, like yours, they had the model 19 info printed on one end and the gun particulars in white grease pencil on the bottom of the box. Markings on the bottom of your box look to be the same handwriting as many of my boxes (a distinct tilt/hand and a "loop" in the top part of the "2"). As noted above, "OSS" is S&W for "oversized stocks" = target stocks. Although it is a bit odd that it was marked OSS as the target stocks were standard on the Combat Magnum from the beginning. Your target stocks appear to have received a new coat of gloss sometime in the not so distant past. I would get an historical letter on the gun to confirm the configuration.

BEAUTIFUL gun!!!

I also would not be surprised if David Carroll ("Wordsmith" on the forum) would remember your gun.

Congrats and thanks for sharing,

 

[Doc44]

First, as Richard stated above, the box is correct for your Model 19. It would not have had an end label (not certain when they appeared, but possibly 1962). Second, the red ramp is correct for your Model 19. The absence of a white outline rear is not unusual as I have two .357 Combat Magnums with original red ramps and a plain rear sight blade. Red ramps were special order at extra cost for this model and should be listed on the invoice. Walnut target stocks were replaced on this model in 1959 with stocks made of Goncalo alves so the stocks on yours are most likely the latter or rosewood that have had an extra coat of Tru Oil some other finish applied. I have also seen OSS on boxes for this model as S&W employees probably wrote it there out of habit.

You have an outstanding example of a .357 Combat Magnum.

Bill

 

[JeffD607]

I saw it listed on the forum, thought it was gorgeous, and thought that I would love to have it. The only thing that held me back was the fact that I have bought three Model 57's since January of this year. Wish it were mine? You betcha!

 

[Truckman]

I have also seen OSS on boxes for this model as S&W employees probably wrote it there out of habit.

You have an outstanding example of a .357 Combat Magnum.

Bill

Bill's assessment can be considered definitive on this subject...Below is the bottom of the box that came with one of my Model 27's shipped one day before my 12th birthday for comparison......Ben

 

[Engine49guy]

Very nice nickel 19,
You can tell it's an interesting topic when it gets 19 comments in a few hours.
I started reading the replies but decided to stop and give my impressions before reading the consensus so my observations are not swayed.
For comparison from my notes have :
Model 19,  Nickel, Barrel 4" ,RR/WO, TT/TH, Serial  K 391560    Shipped Feb 1961, so very close to your serial probably made in the same batch but this one got " The works".

Imo the stocks look like the KWAL marked light colored walnut ones from the mid 60's, definately refinished by the glossy finish and are not the correct vintage for a 60-61 Model 19 which were still using the older style that had the sharp turn checkering at the heel, yours have the rounded turn at the heel that appears a few years later (64-65 ish?).
I would bet the red ramp insert was done after it left the factory mostly based on the lack of white outline.
If it were mine I'd swap a clean set of sharp turn diamond GA or dark walnut target stocks or better yet a set of Rosewood smooth presentation stocks with the correct deep SS escutcheons and maybe add a white outline rear site, (or not) but if I was going to go there I'd probably go ahead and give it the full works wide TT/TH treatment.

Edited to add, after seeing the grease pencil RR on the box I'd be thinking the ramp is original , as with all things SW there are no hard fixed rules.