Influenced by many posts about the virtues of some of the older guns, especially S&Ws all but one of my purchases as a novice gun owner have been used. While some have worked out fine, most have had problems. I'm thinking that maybe future purchases should be new. Anything wrong with my thinking? Would anything be compromised going this way forward?
New vs. Used - Leaning New
- Thread starter Beeser
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Personally, I've never bought a new one. There are enough really nice older guns out there to keep me fully satisfied. Plus, my very favorite models are no longer in production.
Be careful, check them out completely, inspect them thoroughly and there's no reason to have problems with a "previously owned" quality gun.
Bob
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Be careful, check them out completely, inspect them thoroughly and there's no reason to have problems with a "previously owned" quality gun.
Bob
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
S&W has some pretty good new firearms, and some really awesome old firearms. Decide what caliber and features you want, and then decide if new or used is what you need. Many of the older firearms offer things that the newer guns just can't equal, but then again, many of the newer firearms offer things like titanium that the used ones can't. Buy what you like and want. Don't get wound up with new vs. used, but if you buy used, it's a good idea to learn something about the mechanics, or make friends with someone who knows about it . . .
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66snub
Member
You can't go wrong with either old or new ones. Just make sure you check your particular specimen over. Just like with any other gun purchase, you could be getting someone else's problem...
05CarbonDRZ
Member
May I ask what has been wrong with the used Guns you purchased?
I know you have been interested in a 617. I shoot Steel Challenge twice a month. I used my 617 (new model) for about two years until it developed a crack in the frame. I returned the gun to S&W. Within 15 days I had a new 617. I would say to purchase a new S&W and don't look back.
SJshooter
Member
These guns are made to long outlive you and probably your heirs. Their mechanics are relatively elementary, and even with a great deal of neglect and abuse they will operate just fine.
That said, I know where you are coming from. And when I bought my first Smith, I wanted my first revoler to be a brand new gun. I wasn't tied up in the lock politics, so I bought a new S&W with the lock and loved it. I now own more than a dozen Smiths, and all the rest have been used.
And that is because "used" covers a wide range. First of all, a lot of guns you see are barely used. Many have been barely shot. And how much it's been shot may really only matter when the round count gets extremely high and/or the owner doesn't clean their gun. Hickok45 has a video with his S&W Model 29 that he estimates has been shot in the high-tens-of-thousands of times. It looks brand new, and in his video he not only tells great stories of shooting the gun extensively for 30+ years, but it still fires dead accurate and shows little sign of "wear and tear" (except for the cosmetic turn ring on the cylinder and the obvious flame cutting on the top strap, neither of which affect performance). I have some guns that are safe queens that rarely ever (if ever) get shot, and some that I shoot almost every time I go to the range. I clean them extremely well and most folks can't tell the difference.
There is nothing wrong with used guns. (Even new guns are fired three times before you get them). What you want to avoid are abused guns. So if you see a used gun, ask to handle it, and check out a few basic things:
1) Check to make sure it is unloaded of course, and look down the barrel, with a flashlight or phone light if possible. Look for rust or pitting or anything that doesn't look like a nicely rifled barrel.
2) Again, double-checking that it unloaded, pull the trigger and keep it held back. Now fiddle with the cylinder - does it move or shake? Ideally it is locked up S&W-famous tight. Look at where the cylinder meets the forcing cone? Is there a gap? Ideally, no.
3) Now, dry firing slowly, check the timing of the gun. You can google how to do this, but it is very easy and is a simple test to make sure that the internals of the gun are operating properly.
4) Finally, size up the gun cosmetically -- do the aforementioned turn ring/flame cutting indicate heavy repeated use? Has the gun been maintained or does it have superficial dings and scratches (which on steel guns are easily fixed)? Does it come with the original grips, or at least some nice wood or anything better than cheap rubber tires? How about the box and papers the gun originally sold with, are they available?
In my opinion if you can check those four basic things above, then 99.9% of the revolvers you buy will be basically like new. S&W doesn't make a lot of lemons, and those they have made are guaranteed to be fixed. And guns don't really get shot and worn out like you might be thinking, so it's not like buying used tennis shoes.
And finally -- there are PLENTY of older guns out there that are selling literally NIB. S&W new gun prices aren't always cheap, so if you are looking for a good K/L frame .357, for example, and you're looking at $800-1000 for a new 2014 production Smith, you already have the budget for a NIB .357 from 1970-1990 that is more classic, probably made better, has more collectible/re-sale value, and will last every bit as long, if not longer.
Go new, go used... either way -- we want PHOTOS!
That said, I know where you are coming from. And when I bought my first Smith, I wanted my first revoler to be a brand new gun. I wasn't tied up in the lock politics, so I bought a new S&W with the lock and loved it. I now own more than a dozen Smiths, and all the rest have been used.
And that is because "used" covers a wide range. First of all, a lot of guns you see are barely used. Many have been barely shot. And how much it's been shot may really only matter when the round count gets extremely high and/or the owner doesn't clean their gun. Hickok45 has a video with his S&W Model 29 that he estimates has been shot in the high-tens-of-thousands of times. It looks brand new, and in his video he not only tells great stories of shooting the gun extensively for 30+ years, but it still fires dead accurate and shows little sign of "wear and tear" (except for the cosmetic turn ring on the cylinder and the obvious flame cutting on the top strap, neither of which affect performance). I have some guns that are safe queens that rarely ever (if ever) get shot, and some that I shoot almost every time I go to the range. I clean them extremely well and most folks can't tell the difference.
There is nothing wrong with used guns. (Even new guns are fired three times before you get them). What you want to avoid are abused guns. So if you see a used gun, ask to handle it, and check out a few basic things:
1) Check to make sure it is unloaded of course, and look down the barrel, with a flashlight or phone light if possible. Look for rust or pitting or anything that doesn't look like a nicely rifled barrel.
2) Again, double-checking that it unloaded, pull the trigger and keep it held back. Now fiddle with the cylinder - does it move or shake? Ideally it is locked up S&W-famous tight. Look at where the cylinder meets the forcing cone? Is there a gap? Ideally, no.
3) Now, dry firing slowly, check the timing of the gun. You can google how to do this, but it is very easy and is a simple test to make sure that the internals of the gun are operating properly.
4) Finally, size up the gun cosmetically -- do the aforementioned turn ring/flame cutting indicate heavy repeated use? Has the gun been maintained or does it have superficial dings and scratches (which on steel guns are easily fixed)? Does it come with the original grips, or at least some nice wood or anything better than cheap rubber tires? How about the box and papers the gun originally sold with, are they available?
In my opinion if you can check those four basic things above, then 99.9% of the revolvers you buy will be basically like new. S&W doesn't make a lot of lemons, and those they have made are guaranteed to be fixed. And guns don't really get shot and worn out like you might be thinking, so it's not like buying used tennis shoes.
And finally -- there are PLENTY of older guns out there that are selling literally NIB. S&W new gun prices aren't always cheap, so if you are looking for a good K/L frame .357, for example, and you're looking at $800-1000 for a new 2014 production Smith, you already have the budget for a NIB .357 from 1970-1990 that is more classic, probably made better, has more collectible/re-sale value, and will last every bit as long, if not longer.
Go new, go used... either way -- we want PHOTOS!
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
Case by case...
Ten years ago I bought a 1970 Model 15 that was literally unfired. Came from an estate consignment. No box or paperwork or accessories, but pristine. Magnificent revolver. But all the other used guns I've bought, with the exception of a Kel-Tec P32 that just wouldn't fit me so I could shoot it worth a damn, have been rock solid shooters. Some were pretty worn, but all performers.
I haven't the money to buy guns anymore, but I'd certainly be willing to check out new Smiths. Case by case...
Ten years ago I bought a 1970 Model 15 that was literally unfired. Came from an estate consignment. No box or paperwork or accessories, but pristine. Magnificent revolver. But all the other used guns I've bought, with the exception of a Kel-Tec P32 that just wouldn't fit me so I could shoot it worth a damn, have been rock solid shooters. Some were pretty worn, but all performers.
I haven't the money to buy guns anymore, but I'd certainly be willing to check out new Smiths. Case by case...
mc5aw
Member
Your admission of novice status and more problems than not with prior used purchases indicates that you do not have the prerequisite knowledge or experience to identify issues with a used firearm so as to protect yourself from lemons and duds. Stay with new, and rest easy with a warrantee. As you get more knowledge and experience, you will be far better equipped to venture into the used pool.
Nice write up of the inspection process. After you look over a few revolvers, it really is simple. Please allow me to add that a small gap between the cylinder and forcing cone is necessary, usually less than the thickness of a business card but more than the thickness of two pieces of copy paper works well.
And . . . Amen, brother! on the photos.
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My latest purchase was a S&W, Model 41. I've written quite a bit about the problems with it in the semi-auto section here. Before that I purchased a used Browning, BT-99 (trap shotgun) that's been to a local gunsmith twice trying to resolve a premature firing problem. I also purchased a Savage 24B where the barrel sticks shut after firing the 410. The Savage was more of a novelty purchase and is more eye candy for me than anything. The only guns that haven't posed problems are a Beretta, 687 SPII Combo from Joel Etchen, my neat little S&W, Model 17-2 and a Winchester, Model 94 22 Magnum.
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05CarbonDRZ
Member
It seems all of your problems have been with non S&W Revolvers.I would have no issue buying a used S&W Revolver....I don't think you should either.
Can't disagree but in all used purchases I've had a gunsmith check things out. But in all fairness to them I don't see how anyone could identify the problems I've had without extensively firing them.
Hey, Mr. Beeser!
If you are well heeled, go for the new items. After all, if no one buys the new offerings, there will be no way for poor folks like me to find bargains.
On a more serious note, some manufacturers only honor the warranty for the original purchaser. For those brands, new is the often the better way to go regardless of your skills. This is especially true with semi-automatic hand guns that can be remarkably problematic.
S&W revolvers . . . not so much.
If you are well heeled, go for the new items. After all, if no one buys the new offerings, there will be no way for poor folks like me to find bargains.
On a more serious note, some manufacturers only honor the warranty for the original purchaser. For those brands, new is the often the better way to go regardless of your skills. This is especially true with semi-automatic hand guns that can be remarkably problematic.
S&W revolvers . . . not so much.
S&W Envy
Member
Great advice so far and frankly you should expect nothing less from this forum. I have owned both new & used and I have had mixed experiences. You can get a good or bad one new or used. Truth is, experience is important and making mistakes is part of that.
The checkout recommendations earlier in this post is good, but the best I have read and personally used is by Jim March found in another forum at the link below.
http://tinyurl.com/revocheck
If that doesn't work try this one:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57816
I will say that I have come to prefer pre-lock pre-MIM Smith Wheelies and if you use the check out above, you will do fine.
Respectfully, -Envy
The checkout recommendations earlier in this post is good, but the best I have read and personally used is by Jim March found in another forum at the link below.
http://tinyurl.com/revocheck
If that doesn't work try this one:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57816
I will say that I have come to prefer pre-lock pre-MIM Smith Wheelies and if you use the check out above, you will do fine.
Respectfully, -Envy
Beeser,
I responded a couple times to your post about your model 41. Sorry my suggestions did not fix the problem. Sorry for your disappointment. Anyone who buys used guns enough times will more than likely end up with at least one regret. The only way I know to as completely as possible avoid those regrets is to buy new every time from a distributor like Davidson's Gun with a lifetime warranty on guns you purchase through them. There may be other distributors with similar warranties. Davidson's is very convenient and easy to use. The downside is you will be limiting your choice of guns although they have a big selection. I have no interest whatsoever in Davidson's guns. Here is their guarantee:
At Davidson's, your satisfaction is our commitment. In fact, our commitment is so strong, that we have put together the only GuaranteeDSM Lifetime Replacement Warranty available in the firearms industry.
It works like this......
If anything ever goes wrong with any gun you buy with the Davidson's GuaranteeDSM Lifetime Replacement Warranty, it will be replaced. If no replacement is available, it will be repaired at no charge to you. Simple, just return it to the GuaranteeDSM retailer where you purchased it, pay for the return shipping and upon receipt Davidson's will ship the returning retailer a brand new gun* for you.
So make sure every firearm you purchase works for you.
Ask for the GuaranteeDSM Lifetime Replacement Warranty.
John
Scoundrel and Ne'er-Do-Well in Training
M3Stuart
Member
I've bought both used and new guns. The only 'duds' I bought new were what I will politely describe as "brand (or model) specific problems". I've had just as many mechanical problems with new guns as used.
With S&W's I always tended toward used because of limited availability of new models and PRICE. In the past, say until a couple years ago, the used ones were significantly less expensive. I would say that, NOW, that's not really true anymore. For example; the last two M-10's I bought cost $300 OTD for a tapered 10-5 in GREAT shape and $230 for a beat-to-heck 10-8HB. The last (beat up) 10-5 tapered barrel I saw was going for $550 plus tax...and down the case was a brand new M10 'classic' for $620ish. plus tax. For $70, I'd take the shiney new one, with the lifetime warranty, every time!
So forget the discussions of the IL, forged triggers and hammers, etc., and assume for the sake of argument that the features (old and new) are 'even' and look at the price tag. Right now, it makes perfect sense to buy 'new'.
With S&W's I always tended toward used because of limited availability of new models and PRICE. In the past, say until a couple years ago, the used ones were significantly less expensive. I would say that, NOW, that's not really true anymore. For example; the last two M-10's I bought cost $300 OTD for a tapered 10-5 in GREAT shape and $230 for a beat-to-heck 10-8HB. The last (beat up) 10-5 tapered barrel I saw was going for $550 plus tax...and down the case was a brand new M10 'classic' for $620ish. plus tax. For $70, I'd take the shiney new one, with the lifetime warranty, every time!
So forget the discussions of the IL, forged triggers and hammers, etc., and assume for the sake of argument that the features (old and new) are 'even' and look at the price tag. Right now, it makes perfect sense to buy 'new'.
If you can afford it......
If you can afford it, SURE, go all the way. I wouldn't mind buying some new, but most of them are going to be used, simply because I like them.
If you can afford it, SURE, go all the way. I wouldn't mind buying some new, but most of them are going to be used, simply because I like them.
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