Newbie question. Light strikes on a nib 625 *final update *

Nonsense, I can prove that it's not nonsense.
And how long have you been doing this to become an "instant expert"? My 629-2 (bought new 1990?) I used to shoot as my plinking gun (240 pf plinking loads but I was younger then) and have always used it as my dry fire gun (no snap caps) as it has the heaviest trigger pull for use with Winchester primers. I suspect it's going on 1,000,000 dry fires plus an absolute minimum of 50,000, probably closer to 100,000, live rds with no issues.

I figure most of your statements rank right up there with your shooting a 6 shot group and counting only the best 4 from ONE group and touting it as representative. As an "engineer" you should know about things like statistical significance.
 
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Well this is all very disappointing.

This was going to be a house gun. Reliability is my main concern. I don"t mind a heavier pull as long as it goes bang every time, with any ammo my .45acp pistols will shoot. This is from factory defensive to my Wolf primered handloads with deep seated primers. The firing pin was easy enough to change out but that is about as far as I want to take it. Then again I am not a gun smith. Just kind of mind boggling that they can't get a 100+ year old design to fire reliably without a special firing pin that is going to break at some point in the future.

So the Apex pins break as well? This does not help much either.

I am not sure how S&W is going to react. I want to be straight up with them and tell them how I use the gun and how I think it should work. One of the things I remember reading is the rifiling ws cut a bit deep for lead LSWC ammo. This tells me the gun was made to use handloads.

Looking on Gunbroker I can't find a S&W factory .495 pin. Do you think the factory will have any of these or even be willing to send me one? Anyone have a source for these?

Thanks for listening to the ramblings of a newbie. Sammy
 
Looking on Gunbroker I can't find a S&W factory .495 pin.

The last OEM S&W firing pins I bought from both Midway and Brownell's (recently) were .495. Previously I had gotten .485 pins.

So the Apex pins break as well?

They seem to be very reliable as are the OEM .495 pins. The C&S pins have a reputation for breakage and wadded up firing pin springs which mirrors my personal experience.

One of the things I remember reading is the rifiling ws cut a bit deep for lead LSWC ammo. This tells me the gun was made to use handloads.

Mine (625) is shot mostly with lead reloads (swaged coated and cast) with great results.
 
Well, I took the gun out today and everything went bang which is a plus. All the moon clips I had were loaded up (about 20) so when I ran out of loaded clips I loaded up a cylinder and shot all 6. On the 6th round the firing pin stuck in the primer. The gun was totally locked up. Looking at the cases from the side I could see that the brass just fired was flush up against the breachface. I took out the trusty knife and slid it between the brass case and breachface. Twisting the knife I pushed the case forward and saw the firing pin follow. There was no getting it out.

When I got it home I got a long 1/4" nut driver and a 1/4" short self tapping screw and gently put it down the barrel. Luckily it all lined up with the flash hole and with a gentle tap freed up the firing pin. Looking at the case and removing the firing pin they both look just fine. Very strange. The Cylinder & Slide firing pin is much more blunt than the more rounded after market one.

On day i will get this thing figured out. Anyone else have this happen. I was firing my Wolf primered major power factor handloads.
 
As I noted, it's not advisable to use the C&S firing pin until you've reduced the power of the mainspring. When I saw those cracked primers with my 610 using this firing pin I feared it might lead to a pierced primer, thus my warning. I would suggest that you either order the factory firing pin and hope you get one with a .495 inch length or start backing off on the power of the mainspring by either filing down the strain screw or shimming it out. I prefer shimming because it's easy to reverse.

If you have a Dremel and access to some small diamond burrs with a 1/8 inch shank it's not very difficult to make up shims to fit under the head of the strain screw. BTW, you can get these burrs from MSC industrial supply via the following link. You'll also need some shim stock which you should be able to find at the same source, I would suggest ordering 0.005 and 0.010 inch stock. Finally, you'll want a 0.147 inch diameter drill for the ID size, can't remember the number of this size but it's a standard number drill.

MSC Item Detail

To make the shims you'll need a 0.147 inch ID and a finished outside diameter of 0.218 inch. Start out by drilling the shim stock, deburr the drilled holes, and then use some scissors to cut them close to size. Then use the diamond burr in a Dremel to shape them to the final OD. Once you have them made you'll have to pay attention to getting the shim dropped into the counterbore in the frame or the screw head may catch the shim. I'd suggest you start out with just 0.010 inch of shim and test it's effect. Then you can continue to add shims until you get to the point where misfires become a problem. Once there remove 0.005 inch of shim and you'll probably find you are good. Ideally you want to use a good trigger gage for this testing but it's not an absolute essential. If you already have a good trigger gage, shim the strain screw to produce a 9.5 lbs trigger pull and work it down from there.

A bit of good news is that if you spend the time you'll end up with a lighter trigger and 100% reliability for ignition. If you want to go all out, order a 14 lbs. rebound spring, an installation tool and an 800 grit stone to do a bit of smoothing on the rebound slide and the DA sear surface on the trigger. I don't know exactly why but I've found the N frames to be the easiest of all the S&W's to get a really perfect trigger with. I have a hunch that it's the stop rod in the rebound spring but haven't confirmed that yet. One of these days I'll order one and fit it into my 620 because there is still a very tiny "hitch" in the trigger pull that may be the rebound spring buckling and binding. BTW, pay VERY CLOSE attention to the orientation of that stop rod when you remove it, install it backwards and it will lock the trigger up solid when the gun is oriented "wrong".

I'll also repeat that you want to examine the primers on every single fired casing, they will tell you if you are hitting the primers too hard. BTW, that was darned good thinking on getting that stuck firing pin free.
 
so when I ran out of loaded clips I loaded up a cylinder and shot all 6. On the 6th round the firing pin stuck in the primer. The gun was totally locked up.
Your 625 is meant to headspace off the moonclip. You get into trouble without moonclips because the chambers are cut too deep and a round headspacing off the chamber mouth (instead of the moonclip) has too much headspace. Usually about .015" too much. It creates problems as the primer moves in the primer pocket when fired. The C&S pin is long enough to fire loose rds if you have to, but as you found out, it's not a good idea.
 
I noticed that the misfires were more common DA. Attempting to finese the DA pull can allow the trigger finger to relax slightly as the trigger breaks and the hammer starts forward. It doesn't take much relaxation of the trigger finger for the rebound slide to move forward enough to allow it to bump the falling hammer and rob it of enough speed to cause misfires.

Another issue I haven't seen mentioned is making sure your reloads have their primers seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket. If the firing pin is wasting energy driving the primer to fully seat, there might not be enough energy to fire the round.

Lastly, Federal primers are generally regarded to be the most sensitive. Exactly how much are you saving buying Wolf? While I don't suggest using reloads for defensive purposes, what's your life worth?
 
I have a pair of 625's and have replaced the OEM firing pins with Apex pins and replaced the mainspring and rebound spring with a matched set of Jerry Miculek springs. My personal preference is 9.0 lbs dbl action and 3.0 lbs single action. That's how my revolvers are set up and I NEVER get a misfire.

Neither of my revolvers will operate properly using .45 ACP cases without clips (I use both steel clips and RIMZ clips).

I also have 1600 .45 Auto Rim cases and really prefer them for range use. However, there is NO denying the efficiency of a truncated cone or round nose cast bullet used with full moon clips when doing a rapid reload.

Of course many jacketed bullets will work perfectly with clips but I have fired NOTHING but my own cast bullets in my 625's.

To the O.P.
Don't get discouraged. When you have you revolver "up to speed" you will agree that there is NOTHING like it. These are WONDERFUL revolvers.

My 625-6 with Simmons Red Dot Sight:

QDalesRevolversandPistols-1717.jpg


Target shot standing at 25 yards with MY 4" 625-8 Jerry Miculek Special:

img095.jpg


Dale53

Dale53
 
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scooter123, wow that is quite well thought out. I am not a machinist and am not comfortable getting that involved in this project.

I just got off the phone with Apex and they said you can dry fire with their pins all day long and they are a bit shorter than the C&S pin. I ordered 2 of them and should have them by this weekend. Man, I hope this takes care of the problem.

Kind of embarrassing tearing into a $1000.00 revolver at the range to try and get it open.

Another poster said you should not shoot the gun without moon clips. I don't remember seeing this in the manual and have not read this anywhere else. For a defense gun it seems like a handicap to need to use moon clips. Clint Smith's version works the same way as mine. Looking at the online videos he posts he is not using moon clips 100% of the time if I recall correctly. I know he gets endorsements from the factory but he clearly chose the .45acp rimless cartridge over everything else S&W offers. Not knowing much about revolvers I would think their 8 shot .357 would be the combat gun of choice. I wonder why he did not choose that platform.

I was having such a great time with it Sunday. This double action is not nearly as difficult as I thought it would be. At 15 yards I could go at a fairly rapid pace keeping all of them in a 5.5" shoot-n-see. Very fun indeed!!!

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to help me out.

Sammy
 
I'm inclined to support the advice about only shooting with moon clips. While it's not supposed to be the case due to SAAMI specifications for case length I've seen a good 0.010 inch or more variation in case length with the 40 S&W that I shoot. That raises the potential for light strike issues if the bores in the cylinder are at SAAMI maximum. In addition the entire purpose of purchasing a moon clip revolver is to take advantage of the speed and convenience those moon clips provide.

If you want more moon clips at a bargain price, hit the following web site and write down their phone number because they only take orders by phone. However, you can get 100 moon clips for something like 75 dollars.

Ranch Products

That means you can have 600 rounds of ammo loaded and ready to shoot when you get to the range. Try doing that with a semi and you'll spend a small fortune on magazines. BTW, I wouldn't plan on shooting all 600 at one go, the barrel and cylinder will get hot enough you'll need welders gloves to handle it. I ran 96 rounds downrange with my 610 in about 15 minutes Sunday and had to put it away because it was like a hot potatoe fresh out of the oven. However it sure was fun.
 
I'm inclined to support the advice about only shooting with moon clips. While it's not supposed to be the case due to SAAMI specifications for case length I've seen a good 0.010 inch or more variation in case length with the 40 S&W that I shoot. That raises the potential for light strike issues if the bores in the cylinder are at SAAMI maximum.
I'll deal with the OP's .45 acp 625. Ignoring the fact that .45 acp brass tends to keep growing shorter as it's shot and resized and reloaded, the 625 chambers I've measured have been .015" - .020" long. Easy to verify with only feeler gauges. Drop new loose brass into the (clean) chambers and measure the headspace, do the same with moonclipped brass.

If you don't want to use moonclips use .45AR brass. Too bad they don't make Comp III's or JetLoaders for .45AR.
 
A quick recap, day 1, NIB 625 Performance Center shoots 100%. Very great gun, lots of fun. Could not be happier. Shooting my 230g. Zero's using Winchester primers nd 200g. LSWC using Wolf primers.

Day 2 light strikes galore. Found the strain screw backed out so it was tightened up which helped a bit but still 1-2 light strikes per cylinder. I got a box of factory and had the same results.

Day 3 after installing a Cylinder & Slide firing pin it ran 100% with the exception of the firing pin getting lodged in the Wolf primer locking up the gun. No good.

Day 4 I installed an Apex pin and spring and it was no better than the factory pin. This one might have been worse. Light strikes on nearly half of the primers strikes. This was using a combo of Wolf and Winchester primers. I even sorted the ammo looking for no primers that were seated less than flush with the back of the case. I even got some factory from the shack and a friendly shooter next to me.

Tonight I have sent an e-mail describing my problems to S&W. Being totally honest about my use of hand loads. I hope they won't give me a hard time about that but I hand load everything I shoot with the exception of rifle ammo. I just don't shoot enough to justify the cost.

Any way I am hopeful that S&W will take care of it without fuss. I don't care if it needs a heavier trigger pull. As long as it goes bang every time the heavy trigger can be worked with. A FTF costs much more time than a heavy trigger.

Thanks all for the help. The gun is so much fun when it works. So much for the revolver being the ultimate reliable gun. I will update when I hear from S&W.

Sammy
 
This is using moonclips. I tried to fire a cylinder without moonclips and not one would fire.
 
Change the Wolf primers and the problem will go away. Federal preferred, CCI next. The sensitivity is all over the place with the Wolf.
 
Just looked and yes, it has a rib that runs up the mainspring.
OK, your gun came with a reduced power Wolff mainspring. Get an 8-32 x 3/8 or 1/2 socket set screw. Use it as a strain screw replacement. This will allow you adjustment you don't have with the stock screw. Screw it in to where the pull feels like it was. Shoot the gun, screw in you "new" strain screw 1/4 turn at a time until you get 100% ignition with your ammo. Once the gun runs Loctite the screw (290 wicking Loctite) or get a new strain screw to duplicate it's installed length. My guns run fine with stock firing pins as long as they're .492+. The Wolff spring frequently won't run some of the harder primers without a slightly longer strain screw.
 
Tomcatt51, thanks for all your help.

I decided to send the pistol in before I mess something up. A detailed letter was sent noting the problems listed in this thread as well as asking them to do an accuracy check. I am not even sure if there was a problem as load development with this gun has been limited since I have spent all my time trying to get the gun to run.

The gun came back with the notes:

1 Repaired: Cut forcing cone
2 Repaired: Replace firing pin
3 Repaired: Replace Strain Screws

What was not in the notes is they re crowned the gun. The crown was flush with the front and now it is slightly recessed in the barrel.
So a couple questions, Why would they cut the forcing cone to improve accuracy? I told them that I mainly use 200g. LSWC for shooting IDPA, USPSA and paper.

Not wanting to take the gun apart to measure the new parts why would they replace the strain screw and firing pin with identical parts? The trigger feels exactly the same and the same mainspring is in the gun.

This weekend I will take it out and see if it works but I am having doubts.

Thanks for the help everyone. This has been a learning experience. Knowing what I know now I would have got a .357 and a set of dies. Oh well, live and learn.

Sammy
 
So a couple questions, Why would they cut the forcing cone to improve accuracy? I told them that I mainly use 200g. LSWC for shooting IDPA, USPSA and paper.

Not wanting to take the gun apart to measure the new parts why would they replace the strain screw and firing pin with identical parts? The trigger feels exactly the same and the same mainspring is in the gun.
They didn't like something about the forcing cone as delivered.
For IDPA or USPSA you'll want RN or RNF or TC bullets not SWC. SWC's don't make for easy quick reloads.
There are different length strain screws and a couple different style/length firing pins used.
 
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