Newbie wants direction

[oneyeopn]

I bought my Sport for predator hunting. That it excells at, taking one shot at a prairie dog at 250 yards or longer with one shot one kill. It is not a safe queen and gets shot a lot, predator hunting and varmint hunting. I dont run and gun, but I make precision shots. I make shots that are hard to impossible to make offhand, each to their own. We have people here who run and gun with their S&W's with no hitch, people who do tactical courses almost weekly, people who do 3 gun. Their M&P15's perform flawlessly. And the test Cyphertext is referring to is very good to follow to see what happens.

 

[Kodiakco]

The quote option isnt working on my phone this morning.

I really dont care of the barrel is chrome or molinite but just sitting at a bench and shooting small groups? ...whats the point? My rifles only get benched once, to sight in. After that they get shot at tactical courses. They get banged up, dirty, and they run all kinds of ammo, from wolf to Hornady. Thats how i know i have a good rifle. When in a weekend it shoot a thousand plus rounds in less then ideal conditions with less then ideal ammo, gets dirty, isnt cleaned and still keeps on ticking. And i have a basic Colt 6721. Nothing added. No scope, rails or red dots. Cost $650

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

I also shoot tactical competitions. I am very much an amateur in the game. As it stands now, I have about 1900 rounds through my S&W M&P 15 OR since mid May. I have to say it has performed really well. For me it was between a Colt 6920 and the S&W. While S&W is newer in the game of AR's, they are not new to firearms and they have a lifetime warranty. I would stake my life on the reliability, durability and proper function of my M&P.

 

[concho mike]

Got out in the 90's myself and wasn't impressed with the M16. Flash forward to a year ago when i bought the Sport.
Wow.
Kept mine fairly stock but added a 4x scope and a laser for fun at night. The M4'geries are much easier to use compared to the M16. Personalizing them is just icing on the cake. The Sports all the rifle i need.

 

[KJM]

The chart isn't evil, but you have to take what it states and compare to your requirements. For example, the chart calls for a particular composition of steel for the barrel, and it also calls for chrome lining for corrosion control and heat dissipation. If you are going to clean your rifle regularly after firing, and are not going to be firing it in full auto, then you may not require this particular barrel setup. You may prefer a stainless barrel that is unlined or untreated, for the most accuracy potential. Or you may prefer a different twist rate due to the different projectiles you will be using. If you are using light, varmint loads, the 1:7 twist is not going to give you as good of accuracy as a barrel with a slower twist rate.

Mil-spec is simply the standard set of requirements that a rifle intended for military use must be built to. It insures that the rifle is built to the specifics that the military has set to meet their needs and specific applications. A rifle built for civilian use does not need to meet all of the same requirements, as the applications and end use of the rifles are different. If one wants a mil-spec rifle, there are many vendors out there that build to the chart specs, or close. I am a price conscious buyer, so I went with the M&P 15 Sport at about 40% less cost of the Colt 6920. Basically, each owner needs to decide what features or specifications are a must have and purchase within their budget.

Now, I know this site is a S&W board, so there is a lot of love here for the S&W AR, but if someone can really explain to me the short comings of my Sport and their real world impact on my useage, I am all ears. Other sites have such a hatred for anything outside of Colt, DD, BCM, or Noveske, that it is frustrating to have a conversation about a S&W. On the other hand, sometimes our brand allegiance on this board can also have a blinding effect.

That is a really really great analogy of the whole topic.

I think the shortcomings with the "cheaper" ARs in the real world may not matter a whole helluva lot. I do believe, and you may or may not agree, that the "cheaper" ARs would probably not outlast the others.
I don't have a Love OR hatred for any specific brand here. I actually mentioned COLT as MY pic, because it comes in cheapest among the others, such as Les Baer, Wilson etc, where I think you are REALLY buying the name, but I do not begrudge anyone who owns one, or thinks they are better than another like model. They may be right under some circumstances.


**** Disclaimer: I like GLOCKS too.

And....for anyone who missed it the first time, here is a chart of all the different AR's. You can read about the differences between the Colt and the Smith and Wesson here:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5

 

[oneyeopn]

That is a really really great analogy of the whole topic.

I think the shortcomings with the "cheaper" ARs in the real world may not matter a whole helluva lot. I do believe, and you may or may not agree, that the "cheaper" ARs would probably not outlast the others.
I don't have a Love OR hatred for any specific brand here. I actually mentioned COLT as MY pic, because it comes in cheapest among the others, such as Les Baer, Wilson etc, where I think you are REALLY buying the name, but I do not begrudge anyone who owns one, or thinks they are better than another like model. They may be right under some circumstances.


**** Disclaimer: I like GLOCKS too.

And....for anyone who missed it the first time, here is a chart of all the different AR's. You can read about the differences between the Colt and the Smith and Wesson here:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5

Yep the "new" chart, so S&W doesnt want to give away proprietary secrets, if they did it would also hurt Thompson who makes the barrels for them (same company, different hat) I have shot a comparable Colt, Bushmaster and a S&W Sport, all three 16 inch barrels, the Colt had the HBar and the Bushy had whatever it has, side by side same day same distance 50 yards I even checked the sight adjustment on all three, I didnt care for the milspec 4 position stock on the Colt, the Bushy and the S&W were almost twins except for the lack of a FA and Dustcover on the Sport, 55gr FMJ Federal XM193 Ammo. The Sports groups were half of what the other two shot. there were no malfunctions of any type, the colt had the worst trigger of the three, and I dont care for an M203 cutout on my barrel but that is just personal preference so for me the Sport works. I dont clean it everytime I take it out hunting but it fires everytime I pull the trigger. Then I started checking out forums and met the worst gun snobs ever and ended up here and ended up with a Sport, two great decisions. My nephew who is in the sandbox brought home a Sport and an OR so that is how I came to try them. My Sport doesnt look like a Sport anymore but at heart it still is and it is my favorite rifle out of quite a few really nice ones. I wanted a 223 for varmint hunting and I wanted an AR just because I wanted one. I didnt expect to get all I wanted and then some out of the same rifle, but I did.
P.S. the old chart and the new chart have been posted on here alot!!

KJM...oh we dont care about the chart, over here we like our Smith & Wessons, if you are concerned about the Chart go to the forums that are concerned with the Chart.

 

[cyphertext]

I honestly don't know if the mil-spec rifle will last longer. In theory, I would expect the 4150 CMV steel barrel to outlast a 4140 steel barrel, but I will never put enough rounds through mine to know first hand. That is why I am so interested in Matthew Courtney's test. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference in longevity, and if it is enough difference to justify the extra expense. Of course, there is more to it than just the barrel.

As far as the chart and S&W, it is not much help as S&W has not provided the data. I am assuming that S&W has chosen not to provide data, because they really have nothing to gain by doing so. We all know that S&W does not build a mil-spec rifle, and compared on the chart, the S&W would not appear favorably. You have to look at several other sources to obtain the info for the S&W.

For value, I think the Sport and the 15OR are hard to beat for complete, factory built rifles. As you move up in price though, you have to really consider if the features of the mil-spec rifle outweigh features such as sights, rails, and furniture that you would get on a non-mil spec rifle in the same price range.

 

[JaPes]

Old chart, new chart, 4150, 4140, 4150 CMV, mil-spec, chrome lined, unlined, melonite treated, standard combat trigger, single stage after market trigger, two stage triggers, drop in triggers, Carbine, H, H2, H3 buffer, D.I. v.s. Piston, cut rifling, button rifling, hammer forged, 1:7, 1:9, 1:8, 1:8 5R, rifling groove dimension, full chrome BCG, Nickel Boron BCG, Fail Zero BCG, Eugene Stoner's original design and McNamera's effect...

Am I in the right forum? (checks address bar on browser)

For a second there I thought my browser session was hijacked and I ended up elsewhere.

mbliss57 (the OP)...

Because the AR15 enjoys an over-abundance of after-market support, there are infinite combination of standard dimension parts that can be used to build an AR15. Then it gets even more confusing because while the parts dimensions are standardized the construction details of the parts are different.

This leaves a ton of room for AR15 owners to customize and/or build their rifles to whatever way they want. Customization leads to the irrational belief that the rifle is a personal reflection of the owner. This causes arguments over gross & minute details. It's akin to how some people feel about a car, motorcycle, boat. An inanimate tool takes on more meaning than it should.

Truth be told, in the hands of a casual recreational shooter, just about any AR15 will do the job it was designed to do.

The folks who are serious competition shooters (bench, run & gun), or the real deal high-speed low-drag operators will have the practical skill and ability will be able to eke out the performance that a top-tier AR will provide.

Dragon88 gave sage advice yet again. Figure out what you want to do with your rifle, then get the rifle that fills that need. Go your firearms shop and handle a few to get a feel of them in the hand.

Once you've narrowed down your choices, let us know what make & model you are considering. Then we can help you discern the differences between them.

 

[Kodiakco]

...it does not come with a dust cover or shell deflector which in a combat or any other needed situation is as we both know, vital...

Very few if anyone uses the forward assist. It actually creates more problems than it solves. So -1 on being vital. To many other battle rifles don't have "dust covers", so saying it's vital is also a -1.

Just in case you bring up S.P.O.R.T.S.

Slap(magazine)
Pull(Charging handle)
Observe(ejection of round)
Release(charging Handle)
Tap(forward Assist)
Shoot.

The problem with SPORTS is that it is only useful to clear a Type 1 (Failure to Fire) Malfunction. It does not clear a Type 3 (Failure to Extract or Failure to Eject). The Army is way behind what is being taught at civilian courses and in some of the more progressive units when it comes to malfunction clearance manipulations. The Amy teaches Immediate Action, SPORTS, and then says do remedial action to clear the malfunction if SPORTS doesn't work. How many of you in the ARMY were ever taught a specific method to use for remedial action?

Better Method. (Strictly manipulations without discussing cover, transitions, etc)

TYPE 1 (causes-bad ammo, failure to seat mag, failure to press check etc) Pull trigger and hear a click but no bang.
PUSH/PULL- push up on magazine and pull down to see if it is locked
RACK AND CANT Use weak side hand to pull charging handle to the rear while canting rifle so the ejection port is down. Release the charging handle.
ASSESS Target to see if situation still requires you to engage.

TYPE 3 (double feeds) Mushy trigger, bolt is out of battery, 2 rounds are trying to occupy the chamber.
LOCK The bolt to the rear.
STRIP Strip the magazine out. If you just hit the magazine catch, it may not fall out if a round is halfway fed out of the mag. If this is the only mag you have, retain it in the weak hand. If you plan on changing mags, drop it, stow it, whatever.
SWEEP the mag well with the index and middle finger of the weak hand by inserting them from the bottom of the mag well and sweeping from front to rear. This will dislodge any rounds stuck under the gas tube or crammed together into the chamber area.
RACK, RACK, RACK The charging handle with the weak hand a couple times to remove a round that may be in the chamber.
PUSH/PULL Insert a magazine, push up then pull down to ensure it is seated.
RACK The charging handle with the weak hand to load a round in the chamber
ASSESS Target to see if situation still requires you to engage.

The type 3 can be done very quickly if practiced.

I spent 3 years as a Live Fire Observer Controller at JRTC. Observed every Light Airborne, Ranger, and SF unit do Live fires. Malfunctions put soldiers out of the battle a lot because SPORTS was not getting the job done on type 3's. They would try SPORTS and when it did not work, they would fumble around trying to clear without a specific method to do so. There are better ways to do it than the Army's method of Immediate and Remedial Action. It may have changed since I retired in 2001. If it has I would like to hear what it is they are teaching now.

JD