No Hollow Points

Il Marco

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Central NJ
I shot my 669 for the first time in years today. It needs some work but still shoots great. Anyway, I'm a Law enforcement officer in NJ, about to retire. I'd like to carry this pistol, but I will no longer be able to carry hollow points. I'm told Polymer ball ammo is ok. What's the best option for a 669. I've heard it's best to stay away from +p, as it may crack the frame.
 
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Hollow points are designed to prevent over-penetration, a point completely lost on the NJ legislature. It is not uncommon for the hollow core to be plugged when penetrating heavy clothing, whereupon it acts like a FMJ bullet. A semi-wadcutter will inflict nearly as much shock and tissue damage, while remaining compliant with NJ law. A gummy point might be the best of both worlds.

Better yet, look for a compact .45 ACP. A 9 mm may expand, but a .45 never shrinks.

The 669 is an old model, but S&W pistols are usually rated for +P ammunition. A quick check with S&W will clear that up. A steady diet of +P might impose more wear and tear on the frame, but use for self defense with appropriate but limited practice time, is probably okay.
 
How about a flat point FMJ? The flat point will crush muscle instead of penciling through. You may end up with 147gr bullets, but there will be no doubt in the amount of penetration.
 
If I recall when the NYPD went to 9mm they were required to carry military ball ammo. After a few shoot-thru incidents, one of which killed somebody and a couple of which injured cops, the politicians finally started listening to the firearms pros. New Jersey is still run by PC idiots obviously.
 
The 380 has the new Lehigh and even newer OATH Tango loads.
Maybe they might get to the 38 some day ?

Both on this site if you spend a little time looking. (Ammo, 3/21/15 )

Otherwise I would think the large 158gr lead SWC would work.
Good luck.
 
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Any second you will receive recomendations for Critical DUTY/ Crit Defense, but I still prefer Corbon PowerBall for ammo of that type. The Federal Gaurd Dog is EFMJ in new packaging.

The other answer is .45acp.

That sound you hear in the background is residents of Ca , CT, Ma ,NY, and Md all chanting " it's terriable here , but at least we're not New Jersey" .
 
If you are committed to the 669 and 9mm Parabellum a few issues are involved in ammo selection to comply with the NJ laws.

1. Ammo must feed reliably in your pistol. My experience with the S&W autos has been generally good in this regard. Those I have used were reliable with just about anything I chose to feed them, including handloads of .357" SWC's intended for .38 and .357. I suggest that you try a few factory loads for function in your pistol, with an emphasis on large frontal area and flat point. Test each thoroughly to assure yourself that what you choose is 100% reliable in your pistol

2. I would avoid +P, not so much out of concern for the pistol but more from concern over excessive penetration. No point in launching the bullets at higher velocities and increasing penetration; the only real benefit of the higher velocities has always been in getting JHP ammo to expand reliably, and that factor has been taken away from you.

3. The 669 has fixed sights that are not readily adjustable (usually requires a file). Your ammo needs to shoot consistently to point of aim at reasonable ranges (25 to 50 feet). S&W, like most manufacturers, regulates fixed sight guns using the more common ammunition types, probably 115 to 125 grain in 9mm. Much lighter bullets are likely to shoot low compared to point of aim, and much heavier bullets are likely to shoot above point of aim, due to differences in barrel time during the recoil impulse. Make sure whatever you choose is capable of shooting to point of aim.

Will the law permit you to keep using your standard capacity magazines, or will you have to replace those with 10-rounders? Another consideration might be testing magazines for function with your gun and ammo, especially if you are required to make a change.
 
Plus P is FINE. According to the NJSP you are permitted to carry either the Critical Defense, Federal FMJ Expanding, or the Pow R Ball ammunition. This nonsense reportedly only applies to retired N.J. officers. Out of state retiree's are except according to LEOSA but I'm not going to be a test case. I carry the aforementioned ammunition.
 
Read about Hollow Point ammo in NJ here - see page 2 at the bottom:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newjersey.pdf

And this is from Wiki:
Limits and restrictions

Hollow-point ammunition is available for unrestricted purchase from most retailers wherever firearms are sold, and may be transported by purchasers without special licensing. However, hollow-point bullets may not be carried outside of a place of target practice, dwelling, premises or land possessed by a person, even if one has a valid permit to carry a handgun, except when being transported directly to and from these places. [4] Additionally the NJ Superior Court in State v Brian Aitken have ruled that there is no exception for moving between residences with hollow-point bullets. [5]

I hope I never have a reason to enter the state of NJ- Ever!
 
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If you are committed to the 669 and 9mm Parabellum a few issues are involved in ammo selection to comply with the NJ laws.

1. Ammo must feed reliably in your pistol. My experience with the S&W autos has been generally good in this regard. Those I have used were reliable with just about anything I chose to feed them, including handloads of .357" SWC's intended for .38 and .357. I suggest that you try a few factory loads for function in your pistol, with an emphasis on large frontal area and flat point. Test each thoroughly to assure yourself that what you choose is 100% reliable in your pistol

2. I would avoid +P, not so much out of concern for the pistol but more from concern over excessive penetration. No point in launching the bullets at higher velocities and increasing penetration; the only real benefit of the higher velocities has always been in getting JHP ammo to expand reliably, and that factor has been taken away from you.

3. The 669 has fixed sights that are not readily adjustable (usually requires a file). Your ammo needs to shoot consistently to point of aim at reasonable ranges (25 to 50 feet). S&W, like most manufacturers, regulates fixed sight guns using the more common ammunition types, probably 115 to 125 grain in 9mm. Much lighter bullets are likely to shoot low compared to point of aim, and much heavier bullets are likely to shoot above point of aim, due to differences in barrel time during the recoil impulse. Make sure whatever you choose is capable of shooting to point of aim.

Will the law permit you to keep using your standard capacity magazines, or will you have to replace those with 10-rounders? Another consideration might be testing magazines for function with your gun and ammo, especially if you are required to make a change.

We can carry a magazine up to 15 rounds.
 
The state of New Jersey has always been in the fore front when making new changes. Jersey barriers? Gun laws? This no hollow point thing could spread.
 
Here is a question!

Why does he get to carry?!?!?!?

Almost no one gets that "right" in the people's republic of nj

Under LEOSA (Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act), retired officers in good standing are allowed to carry nation-wide, no other permit needed. Active LEO are also allowed to carry nation-wide. Makes it convenient in some ways, kinda inconvenient in others.
For example, in Kansas, retired LEO's have to qualify each year, shooting the standard police qualification course, with a semi-auto and a revolver (if they want to carry both types of handgun). CCH licensees are required to qualify once, when they take the licensing class; then the CCH is valid for four years, at which time it is renewed in the same manner as a drivers license--go to the DMV, pay a fee, and get the new 4-year license.

A CCH licensee is not required to submit to the NICS background check when purchasing a firearm (they still fill out the federal form, but don't have to wait around for the phone call for the Feds to deem them worthy of having a gun). Retired and active LEO still have to be called in.

One good thing about traveling with a retired/LEOSA-licensed LEO friend is when you're passing through an area where your CCH isn't recognized, you buddy could carry your gun until you get out of that jurisdiction--unless you're traveling in New Mexico, where it is only permitted to carry one gun.

Sorry for the long answer. Acebow
 
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I have been following this thread over the last couple days. It really amazes me that a state has this kind of law. Now don't get me wrong, lawmakers in my state are by and large, a bunch of self serving boneheads, but I really cannot imagine this kind of ammunition restrictions becoming law. I think even if this kind of law managed to get passed, I really can't imagine that it would be enforced here.

Maybe I should get out more...or not.
 
There's a story there, F- 75...

Retired officers could not carry until about 20 years ago. A retired police chief took some elderly friends a cemetery in Newark to tend to a loved on's grave. They were robbed by a thug, and the retiree had nothing to defend them with but a rake. The retired chief was murdered. After the Star Ledger article, legislation went through quickly.
 
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