Novice Question -- Pocket Carry with Empty Chamber?

[fatcat3]

I learned that the Glocks, at least, are only partially cocked before the trigger is pulled and do not have enough stored energy to ignite the primer, even if by some means they were released from that position. Further to that, the firing pin (striker) is blocked by a button that's only pushed out of the way by pulling the trigger. I suspect most others are similar (but before I stuff one in my pants, I'll find out for sure).

I've disassembled and re-assembled Glocks many times, understand how they work and I'm comfortable with one in the pipe. But that's just me.

THANK YOU
Till the above I'm not all that fond of carrying a striker pistol anyway and I have to carry one daily. (part of that is they are uglier than home made sin) On the other hand, what are you all doing in your pocket that you don't trust a long trigger pull it's not like you're carrying a cocked and unlocked 1911.

 

[OFT II]

At least a 1911 has a grip safety.

 

[pantannojack]

An empty chamber might not have saved George Zimmerman

 

[johngalt]

If carrying a cocked auto gives you the willies, I would get a revolver. I sometimes pocket carry a 642, I hardly notice it's there. I also carry it IWB on my bike.

 

[Moose074]

I'm not a fan of pocket carry, I can barely fit my hands in my pocket let alone pull a gun out. As a personal preference I don't believe there is a wrong answer. I always have one in the chamber. It a personal pet peeve to watch a actor chamber a round after running toward a fight. When I was in USAF we were required to have on in the chamber while performing gun guard duty

 

[Dave from Pa]

It's a bad idea.Carry a round in the chamber.If it worries you with a striker fired pistol,look at a Bodyguard .380 or a pistol with similiar operation.

 

[ken158]

You have received all the answers necessary to make a proper decision. You admit to being a novice with limited training. Scoring a permit does not make you ready to carry. Take some more training, practice empty or snap cap loaded and go about your daily business. When your gun gets in your way - it will tell you by poking you in sensitive places… If you can not carry comfortable then you wont carry. If you carry an "empty" gun and need it like right now, you are screwed… If you need to rack a slide, you WILL look at the gun while doing it and take your eyes off your aggressor. I highly suggest you start with a revolver to make yourself comfortable with the process of pocket carry (which I do not unless it is a jacket pocket).

 

[Old cop]

I've pocket carried my LCP chambered for years. It has a long double action trigger and it's so small getting a round chambered in the midst of a life threatening emergency could be tricky. I have big hands and could induce a malfunction attempting to get the gun "ready" w/only a split second heads-up.

 

[sotexas]

I suspect your post will get a lot of replies. Personally, at this time (more on that in a bit) I would not pocket carry a striker fired gun, round in the chamber, without a thumb safety.

I pocket carry two guns now. A 642 revolver, and much more often, a Bodyguard 380. If you don't know, the BG is a DAO hammer fired gun. The hammer is NOT partially cocked by racking a round into the chamber. Even so, until very recently, I always pocket carried it with a round in the chamber and the thumb safety engaged. Now I have finally evolved to carrying it with the safety off, figuring it's just as safe as my 642. (If the safety were larger, ala my 1911, or even my old Hi Power, I'd leave it on.)

I have been seriously considering a Ruger LCP MAX, but one of the reasons I have not purchased one is the hammer is partially cocked when a round is racked into the chamber, there's no thumb safety, and the trigger pull is a little bit light for my personal comfort level. AT THIS TIME. Could be I'll get one, and get comfortable pocket carrying it. I'm not in any rush, because I feel very comfortable having only 5 or 7 rounds on tap with my current carry guns.

So I really can't answer your question. I can't see carrying with an empty chamber, but I also wouldn't pocket carry a P365 without a thumb safety.

The Ruger Max 9 comes with a very manageable small thumb safety

 

[sotexas]

I wouldn't carry with an empty chamber but that is my decision. Carry how you are comfortable.

 

[BB57]

Two comments based on 37 years carrying a handgun.

First, what works and or is practiced by military or law enforcement officers isn't always transferable to, or a good idea for, armed citizen concealed carry.

I have had two work related events that required drawing a handgun to resolve the situation, neither of which involved firing the handgun, although both came exceptionally close. While I carried my service revolver on a loaded chamber in one instance and my service pistol in condition 1 (cocked and locked on a loaded chamber) in the other, both of those events would have provided ample time to draw a pistol and rack the slide if it had been in Condition 3 (hammer down on an empty chamber). When an officer goes into a situation knowing there is a threat present, and or when the threat slowly evolves, he or she has some time to prepare.

That isn't always the case, and for that reason most police departments carry a DA/SA, DAO or striker fired pistol hammer down on a loaded chamber. The few that allow an SA pistol carry them cocked and locked on a loaded chamber. While police officers often have some early warning, it's just as likely they won't in rapidly evolving situations such as a suspect exiting a car with a gun as the officer approaches during a traffic stop.

I'll also argue that having advanced warning should seldom be the case for an armed citizen. They should not knowingly be going into dark places looking for bad people. If you think someone has broken into your detached garage - just call the police. It's never worth shooting someone over a property crime that doesn't also involve an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury, and you shouldn't go looking for that imminent threat.

Military doctrine often calls for condition 3 carry as the rear area troops who are more likely to rely on a pistol usually have some warning. Alternatively, in the case of the early decades of the Israeli army they used a condition 3 carry doctrine as they had a mishmash of various semi-auto pistols and that doctrine could be consistently applied to all of them, which was important for standardized training.



Second, the sole situation in which I needed a concealed handgun as an armed citizen also ended without a shot being fired. A guy in a hoodie with a knife came up behind me. I turned just in time to see him right behind me with one hand coming up for my neck and the other coming out of his pocket with the knife.

As background it was a *massive* situational awareness failure on my part as I'd gotten off the metro after a 12 hour shift to get $300 at an ATM. I was in a hurry to get to the AT&T store before it closed in about 5 minutes at 9pm. I wasn't looking around at the ATM or after despite it being dark in an urban area with almost no one on the streets. I was walking very fast and if I hadn't turned down the wrong street and immediately turned around I would not have seen the assailant. If I'd been paying attention I'd have probably seen him observing the ATM, made eye contact and kept him in sight., which would have most likely prevented his approach. In short, it would have probably been totally preventable with better SA. Don't be like me and let yourself get distracted to the point of ignoring your surroundings, no matter how tired you might be.

As it was, my response was just reflex based on training. Since I was turning into him and my body was already bladed and moving in his direction, I delivered an immediate thrust to his sternum with my left arm to blunt the attack, stepping into it to drive him off balance and keep him off balance in order to create space and time for me to draw my IWB carried pistol with my right hand. As soon as he saw me lift my jacket and begin to draw he pivoted around and ran. I was fortunate that he was a competent criminal who recognized he was about to get shot and that getting shot wasn't career enhancing.

If I had been carrying in condition three in that situation I would have had to give up the initiative and stop driving him back with my left hand in order to use both hands to rack the slide. With this particular criminal it would not have made a difference as it ended before the draw was even complete.

However, had he persisted in his assault, being in condition 1 would have allowed me to shoot with one hand from a close in retention position while l keeping my left hand high and out of the line of fire, or pulling it back to my chest just before firing.

In contrast, being in Condition 3 carry would have required disengaging with my left hand to bring it back to rack the slide before being able to fire. That additional time may well have been enough for a determined assailant to regain his balance and stick the blade in me.


——


IMHO, unless it's required by law, I can see no good reason to carry on an empty chamber. I'm not a big fan of striker fired pistols, particularly for IWB carry, but pocket carry using a well designed holster doesn't pose significant safety risks, particularly with a well designed DA/SA, DAO, SA pistol with a safety, or a DA revolver.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

You got plenty of replies, mostly agreeing that the empty chamber is a bad idea. I agree as well.

I pocket carry daily, either a J frame .38 Special (M649) or a Walther CCP 9mm (basically my only polymer handgun and definitely my only striker fired handgun). In pocket holsters, of course.

Drawing a handgun from your pocket is a more complicated process physically than drawing a handgun from a belt holster, either IWB or OWB. It doesn't "seem" to be more complex but if you break the "motions" down you can see that it really is. That's why you practice!

Therefore, adding another step, to wit, racking the slide to get a round in play, is simply a very bad idea. Too much time wasted with adrenaline pouring into you and danger about to strike - or you wouldn't be pulling the gun out, right?

Personally, I think you should only pocket carry a TDA handgun or a striker fired handgun because you certainly don't want to carry a cocked and locked single action pistol in your pocket and, while cocking the hammer from Condition 2 isn't as slow a step as racking the slide it is still a step you don't need.

I suspect your post will get a lot of replies. Personally, at this time (more on that in a bit) I would not pocket carry a striker fired gun, round in the chamber, without a thumb safety.

There's a lot to be said for that remark and since the thumb safety on my CCP swipes off super easily I have learned to carry that gun that way. Still, a world of difference between that and a single action pistol which should never be carried in a pocket. IMHO. YMMV.

The SIG under discussion, however, as far as I can tell, is striker fired and doesn't have a thumb safety. I wouldn't let that discourage me from carrying that gun in a pocket if it fits there, with a round in the chamber.

FYI - side note:

Military doctrine often calls for condition 3 carry as the rear area troops who are more likely to rely on a pistol usually have some warning. Alternatively, in the case of the early decades of the Israeli army they used a condition 3 carry doctrine as they had a mishmash of various semi-auto pistols and that doctrine could be consistently applied to all of them, which was important for standardized training.

Last time I watched IDF members train they still used condition 3. But they were so fast their hands were a blur!

 

[Valmet]

I don't subscribe to carrying any handgun with an empty chamber myself. That said, I don't subscribe to pocket carrying either but at least get something that covers the trigger guard if you do.

There's lots of comfortable IWB holsters out there- plenty for the 365.

 

[Doug M.]

Pocket carry has certain advantages. It also has certain disadvantages. They seems to have been addressed. I have not worn jeans in years. Pocket carry is likely to be a fail in jeans. Most of time I am in cargo pants, for lots of reasons. I have not worn dress trousers/shoes since sometime in 2017, as I am almost always an office nerd and rarely go to court. Our local judges only care that I wear a real shirt and T with a coat on the rare occasions I hit a courtroom. (I say that most of the time I look like an escapee from Public Works. It's not far off.)

In cargo or dress pants, pocket carry works fine. There are certain conditions that go with that. 1) Good holster that is designed for pocket carry. My primary EDC is a G33 in a Kramer Holster. Been using that mode for 20+ years with no problems. I had to carry a G42 for a while after one of my surgeries. That was in a pocket holster by Mika. 2) Nothing goes in that pocket with the gun. It is so ingrained that when I use another carry mode, it feels weird.

I cannot see any circumstance in which empty chamber carry is appropriate. A loaded chamber with a quality firearm and good holster is perfectly safe. Period. An empty chamber is dangerous to you, and violates Rule 1: all guns are always loaded. It can also lead to complacency.

As for the concept that you should have ample notice that you need a gun - that is not even arguably correct, and if you do, you should leave. If you are not comfortable with pocket carry, don't carry that way. Fine.