I have no roll with NRA. I speak only for myself.
I'm not on the ballot or Bod. My interest is to see NRA regain its strength and influence to protect the Second Amendment and provide programs for the membership.
NRA election coming up
- Thread starter somorris
- Start date
I have no roll with NRA. I speak only for myself.
I'm not on the ballot or Bod. My interest is to see NRA regain its strength and influence to protect the Second Amendment and provide programs for the membership.
You tell us who/what your aren't. Tell us who you are. Why should we believe or trust your observations? You have zero credibility because you don't give any credentials. A quick search on the 'net shows nothing about a person named "Seth Haan." So who the heck are you? Personally, I think you're hiding under a pseudonym and are here, and on other forums, just to stir things up.
Matt_X
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2023
- Messages
- 340
- Reaction score
- 312
I draw the same conclusion as @Krogen
This morning you pop in and choose to only to answer the same question from 2/2 that you answered before.
This morning you pop in and choose to only to answer the same question from 2/2 that you answered before.
It seems to me this question was generated by someone who did google search fishing for an ice breaker.
Last edited:
SETHHAAN is really helping Jeff and the reformers, we should thank him. 
Last edited:
JeffKnox
Member
I don't want to take over your forum with more "He said -- He/She/They said," but I do think some of these things need to be answered.
First the $200 million dollars figure.
Yes, I was a bit cavalier and imprecise in my wording above. The $200 million figure is an approximation of what the NRA has paid to Brewer Attorneys and Counselors (plus the bankruptcy attorneys Brewer recommended) over the course of the past several years, with the bulk of that money going toward things related to the overall Wayne LaPierre scandal. I lumped it all together into "protecting Wayne," and that's not perfectly accurate.
YES, I absolutely blame the NRA Board for "fraudulent acts" that were concealed from them by bad actors.
It was their job to know.
What Seth conveniently leaves out is that it was Wayne and his hand-picked attorney who were leading up the course corrections and the righting of the ship, while the Board continued to follow him around like puppies. Seth says repeatedly that the Board took corrective action as soon as the "fraudulent acts" were discovered...
Corrective actions and changes began in 2018, mainly involving demands that NRA vendors provide more detailed invoices for some of their charges, and snowballed from there. But throughout all of that, including after the major expose' was published in The New Yorker detailing much of LaPierre's chicanery, and the subsequent revelations of specific spending from Ackerman McQueen, including the $270k on suits from Beverly Hills, the luxury apartment for the beauty queen intern, and the private jet travel to the Bahamas and around the country, Wayne was kept in charge!!! Whistleblowers were fired, driven out, attacked, and ignored. Directors who asked inconvenient questions were ostracized and pushed off the Board, even Ollie North, who Wayne had begged to quit his million-dollar job with FOX News to take a position with Ackerman McQueen so he could become the President of the NRA, was accused of extortion and an attempted coup for suggesting that Wayne should step down, all while Wayne and his lawyer remained firmly ensconced.
Wayne was never fired from the NRA. He was never asked by the Board to step down. He was repeatedly reelected to the EVP position, even as all of this damning information kept being uncovered and verified. When someone actually had the cojones to nominate Allen West as an alternative candidate to run against him for EVP, only 2 or 3 Directors voted for West, while the vast majority voted to keep Wayne in control.
They didn't know... How stupid do they think we are?
I invite interested readers to go back and read my articles before and during this whole mess, where I pointed out details of the chicanery, laid out options for the Board to respond, and offered predictions on what would happen based on that response. Right after the 2019 Members' Meeting, I said the Board had two choices: Get rid of Wayne and clean up their act, with apologies to the membership and thorough, transparent audits, OR circle the wagons around Wayne and keep circling right down the drain. You know what they chose. (But they didn't know!)
I repeatedly argued that the NRA's position in court should be "We were the victims!" I called for them to do a thorough internal investigation/audit, identify the dirty-work, dump the perpetrators, and claim victim status, but instead they chose to keep insisting that the whole thing was just politically-motivated attacks and sour grapes. The best they could muster was the admission that "some mistakes were made," while continuing to insist that Wayne had done nothing wrong.
The first time I heard any claim from the NRA or their lawyers that they were "victims of a few unscrupulous executives and vendors," was during the actual jury trial in February 2024, almost 5 years after this whole mess was exposed.
But you see... They DIDN"T KNOW!!!
Regarding reducing the size of the Board.
I've given this issue considerable thought over many years. My objective is accountability with checks and balances.
After watching the way things work in the NRA, I've seen too often how the game is played. The vast majority of NRA members don't vote in NRA elections. They either aren't paying attention, don't think they know enough about the candidates or issues to be of any value, or they just don't see it as very important. Among the 5% to 7% who do vote, the vast majority get almost all of their trusted information about NRA matters from NRA magazines. Only a very few are paying attention to outside voices like mine, and most of the big gun publications have always been to afraid of offending the wrong person to wade into NRA politics, which means that whoever controls the NRA magazines, has the potential to control NRA voters. While we all hope the magazines would remain neutral and fair, that has not been the case historically. Also, a vendor who is receiving millions of dollars from the NRA, has a vested interest in making sure that the people who keep those millions flowing, remain in power, so they are often willing to spend some money to keep the taps open.
That's why my rough draft of a new Board structure includes an Advisory Council (or Advisory board, or Advisory Committee, whatever you want to call it) that is mostly (or completely) elected in representative fashion, like the House of Representatives, by their local constituents. If I'm the Rep. from Arizona, I'd be directly accountable to the members in Arizona.
That, along with shorter terms and some sort of term-limit structure, would assure accountability and responsiveness, unlike the current 76-member, all at-large process we have been operating under.
I think those highly accountable Advisors would be in a better position to vet candidates for the Managing Board than an open election that could be manipulated by the EVP or vendors, but I'm not married to any of the ideas I've suggested on this subject. I'm just throwing out my (well thought-out) ideas as a starting point for a discussion that I think needs a whole lot of serious discussion. I'm a big believer in "iron sharpens iron," and would like to see these ideas discussed and debated -- not in order to see my ideas adopted, but to work all of the ideas down into the best workable solutions for our members.
All I'll say about NRA's "battle-hardened attorneys" is that they were charging us something like $2 million a month, would bring two or three attorneys, at around $900 to $1500 per hour, and a couple of paralegals or other staff, to every meeting, hearing, conference, and phone call, and they have a track record of losing cases.
In the case of Chris Cox's severance package, Chris had a contract guaranteeing him a couple of years in severance pay, which added up to about $2 million dollars. I personally don't think he should have had that guaranteed severance package, but that's what was in his contract. When he tried to claim it, the NRA and Brewer went to war to deny it to him. They spent something like $8 million in the legal battle trying to avoid paying that $2 million. Then after they had lost, they sued the attorneys that had arbitrated the dispute. What an excellent idea (I said facetiously). In the end, Cox got his $2 million plus all of his attorney fees, and it only cost the NRA something north of $10 or $12 million to get there. But the Brewer firm got paid.
Well, once again I have failed in my attempt at brevity.
I'll close by noting that I remain consistent in my support and opposition regarding Board candidates. I opposed all long-term incumbents. Supported a few short-term incumbents, and almost all of the new candidates, including some of the "Old Guard's" new candidates. What a terrible partisan hack I am. I guess it's just my "bitter old man" coming out.
Sorry to clutter your forum with all of this mess. I hope I'm being helpful.
As always, if you have any questions, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer.
Jeff
First the $200 million dollars figure.
Yes, I was a bit cavalier and imprecise in my wording above. The $200 million figure is an approximation of what the NRA has paid to Brewer Attorneys and Counselors (plus the bankruptcy attorneys Brewer recommended) over the course of the past several years, with the bulk of that money going toward things related to the overall Wayne LaPierre scandal. I lumped it all together into "protecting Wayne," and that's not perfectly accurate.
YES, I absolutely blame the NRA Board for "fraudulent acts" that were concealed from them by bad actors.
It was their job to know.
What Seth conveniently leaves out is that it was Wayne and his hand-picked attorney who were leading up the course corrections and the righting of the ship, while the Board continued to follow him around like puppies. Seth says repeatedly that the Board took corrective action as soon as the "fraudulent acts" were discovered...
Corrective actions and changes began in 2018, mainly involving demands that NRA vendors provide more detailed invoices for some of their charges, and snowballed from there. But throughout all of that, including after the major expose' was published in The New Yorker detailing much of LaPierre's chicanery, and the subsequent revelations of specific spending from Ackerman McQueen, including the $270k on suits from Beverly Hills, the luxury apartment for the beauty queen intern, and the private jet travel to the Bahamas and around the country, Wayne was kept in charge!!! Whistleblowers were fired, driven out, attacked, and ignored. Directors who asked inconvenient questions were ostracized and pushed off the Board, even Ollie North, who Wayne had begged to quit his million-dollar job with FOX News to take a position with Ackerman McQueen so he could become the President of the NRA, was accused of extortion and an attempted coup for suggesting that Wayne should step down, all while Wayne and his lawyer remained firmly ensconced.
Wayne was never fired from the NRA. He was never asked by the Board to step down. He was repeatedly reelected to the EVP position, even as all of this damning information kept being uncovered and verified. When someone actually had the cojones to nominate Allen West as an alternative candidate to run against him for EVP, only 2 or 3 Directors voted for West, while the vast majority voted to keep Wayne in control.
They didn't know... How stupid do they think we are?
I invite interested readers to go back and read my articles before and during this whole mess, where I pointed out details of the chicanery, laid out options for the Board to respond, and offered predictions on what would happen based on that response. Right after the 2019 Members' Meeting, I said the Board had two choices: Get rid of Wayne and clean up their act, with apologies to the membership and thorough, transparent audits, OR circle the wagons around Wayne and keep circling right down the drain. You know what they chose. (But they didn't know!)
I repeatedly argued that the NRA's position in court should be "We were the victims!" I called for them to do a thorough internal investigation/audit, identify the dirty-work, dump the perpetrators, and claim victim status, but instead they chose to keep insisting that the whole thing was just politically-motivated attacks and sour grapes. The best they could muster was the admission that "some mistakes were made," while continuing to insist that Wayne had done nothing wrong.
The first time I heard any claim from the NRA or their lawyers that they were "victims of a few unscrupulous executives and vendors," was during the actual jury trial in February 2024, almost 5 years after this whole mess was exposed.
But you see... They DIDN"T KNOW!!!
Regarding reducing the size of the Board.
I've given this issue considerable thought over many years. My objective is accountability with checks and balances.
After watching the way things work in the NRA, I've seen too often how the game is played. The vast majority of NRA members don't vote in NRA elections. They either aren't paying attention, don't think they know enough about the candidates or issues to be of any value, or they just don't see it as very important. Among the 5% to 7% who do vote, the vast majority get almost all of their trusted information about NRA matters from NRA magazines. Only a very few are paying attention to outside voices like mine, and most of the big gun publications have always been to afraid of offending the wrong person to wade into NRA politics, which means that whoever controls the NRA magazines, has the potential to control NRA voters. While we all hope the magazines would remain neutral and fair, that has not been the case historically. Also, a vendor who is receiving millions of dollars from the NRA, has a vested interest in making sure that the people who keep those millions flowing, remain in power, so they are often willing to spend some money to keep the taps open.
That's why my rough draft of a new Board structure includes an Advisory Council (or Advisory board, or Advisory Committee, whatever you want to call it) that is mostly (or completely) elected in representative fashion, like the House of Representatives, by their local constituents. If I'm the Rep. from Arizona, I'd be directly accountable to the members in Arizona.
That, along with shorter terms and some sort of term-limit structure, would assure accountability and responsiveness, unlike the current 76-member, all at-large process we have been operating under.
I think those highly accountable Advisors would be in a better position to vet candidates for the Managing Board than an open election that could be manipulated by the EVP or vendors, but I'm not married to any of the ideas I've suggested on this subject. I'm just throwing out my (well thought-out) ideas as a starting point for a discussion that I think needs a whole lot of serious discussion. I'm a big believer in "iron sharpens iron," and would like to see these ideas discussed and debated -- not in order to see my ideas adopted, but to work all of the ideas down into the best workable solutions for our members.
All I'll say about NRA's "battle-hardened attorneys" is that they were charging us something like $2 million a month, would bring two or three attorneys, at around $900 to $1500 per hour, and a couple of paralegals or other staff, to every meeting, hearing, conference, and phone call, and they have a track record of losing cases.
In the case of Chris Cox's severance package, Chris had a contract guaranteeing him a couple of years in severance pay, which added up to about $2 million dollars. I personally don't think he should have had that guaranteed severance package, but that's what was in his contract. When he tried to claim it, the NRA and Brewer went to war to deny it to him. They spent something like $8 million in the legal battle trying to avoid paying that $2 million. Then after they had lost, they sued the attorneys that had arbitrated the dispute. What an excellent idea (I said facetiously). In the end, Cox got his $2 million plus all of his attorney fees, and it only cost the NRA something north of $10 or $12 million to get there. But the Brewer firm got paid.
Well, once again I have failed in my attempt at brevity.
I'll close by noting that I remain consistent in my support and opposition regarding Board candidates. I opposed all long-term incumbents. Supported a few short-term incumbents, and almost all of the new candidates, including some of the "Old Guard's" new candidates. What a terrible partisan hack I am. I guess it's just my "bitter old man" coming out.
Sorry to clutter your forum with all of this mess. I hope I'm being helpful.
As always, if you have any questions, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer.
Jeff
Thank you again, Jeff.
I think one issue the membership has had is no one on the Board has ever communicating with us like you have here. He magazine was just fluff for the most part, always painting things as rosy. Your post is long, but outstanding reading. I am hopeful you and others who feel like you do can right the ship for us. Thank you so much for our time and efforts on my behalf!
I think one issue the membership has had is no one on the Board has ever communicating with us like you have here. He magazine was just fluff for the most part, always painting things as rosy. Your post is long, but outstanding reading. I am hopeful you and others who feel like you do can right the ship for us. Thank you so much for our time and efforts on my behalf!
Mark Shuell
Member
Board of Directors
Here's the number of Directors at various large companies.
Proctor & Gamble——-24
Intel—————————18
Dow Chemical————12
Merck————————-13
I'm not sure of the perfect number of Directors, but it's way less than 76. I'm a guy who sat through countless meetings at large companies. I came up with a mathematical formula for the effectiveness of large meetings. "The amount you accomplish at a meeting is an inverse proportion to the number of people AT the meeting".
Here's the number of Directors at various large companies.
Proctor & Gamble——-24
Intel—————————18
Dow Chemical————12
Merck————————-13
I'm not sure of the perfect number of Directors, but it's way less than 76. I'm a guy who sat through countless meetings at large companies. I came up with a mathematical formula for the effectiveness of large meetings. "The amount you accomplish at a meeting is an inverse proportion to the number of people AT the meeting".
Matt_X
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2023
- Messages
- 340
- Reaction score
- 312
Speaking of which, it would be good to hear what those running for the board think about the programs like this one.
While this may not be the most immediate concern, I would hope the new board has the vision to recognize how much of the future depends on programs. Would like to hear about how to turn this around.
While this may not be the most immediate concern, I would hope the new board has the vision to recognize how much of the future depends on programs. Would like to hear about how to turn this around.
Attachments
Last edited:
I had a tough time following links to Jeff Knox's endorsements in this thread. I did eventually find them via Google. Here's (yet another) link to his endorsements. Hopefully the link remains functional.
NRA Board Election 2025 Endorsements: Future of NRA is in Members' Hands
NRA Board Election 2025 Endorsements: Future of NRA is in Members' Hands
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,669
- Reaction score
- 21,352
Just mailed my ballot today. Encouraging everyone to do your own due diligence and vote.
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2013
- Messages
- 5,149
- Reaction score
- 12,855
Jeff -
I'd like to comment on this sentence, and perhaps help you and others understand why this occurs, not only at the NRA but also at other organizations where people from different companies meet and discuss common issues.
I was chairman of a subcommittee for an industry group based in Washington DC. The subcommittee was made up of representatives from a number of different companies, most of which were based in the US. Every meeting, dinner, and conference call involving the members of this subcommittee was attended by at least one attorney, who monitored our discussions and generated notes which were archived.
The purpose of this practice was to ensure we had a valid defense and explanation of our actions should the government ever charge us with price fixing. There were many other subcommittees dealing with various issues within our industry, and all followed this practice.
I was a subcommittee member of a different industry group, and it also had attorney participation whenever representatives from different companies within that industry met. Again, it was a defense to allegations of price fixing.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing with any other statements from you or the other posters in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there are legitimate reasons for this practice, other than running up a large legal bill.
I put my ballot into the mailbox last night.
BluedRevolver
Member
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2011
- Messages
- 38
- Reaction score
- 87
You are lying. You are clearly acting under the auspices of your clique of BoD, if not an outright member. Your "we" language gives it away. There is an entire page exposing you. I see you on pistol-forum and elsewhere doing the same thing.
JeffKnox
Member
We are working on better communications.
It's starting with bringing the Board into the 21st century by creating an online space where we can access core documents and our "read-ahead" stuff for the next meeting, rather than having NRA mail us each a thick book of documents every couple of months.
From there, I hope to see a new Members Only website where members can access Directors and committees in a forum-type setting.
Hell, if HandEjector can manage this forum, how hard could it be? ;-)
Of course the Association always wants to put forward it's best face in public, but I agree, members need to know what's really going on, and Directors should be much more accessible.
JeffKnox
Member
You're absolutely right that lawyers serve an important purpose, and I understand that. My heartburn is over the number of lawyers involved, the costs being charged, and the lack of substantive results.
Ollie North was raising questions about their billings and efficacy all the way back in 2018. He tried to set up a special committee to look into the billings, but the LaPierre loyalists painted it as North trying to undermine the lawyers for the benefit of Ackerman McQueen, the PR firm.
I firmly believe the NY lawsuit could have been avoided, had the Board had good legal representation, good leadership, and the good of the organization as their top concern. After the suit was filed, it didn't take long for the judge to take dissolution off the table, and at that point, again, I believe the NRA could have gotten the mess settled and done with in short order. Instead, they kept fighting, filed for bankruptcy without even consulting the Board, were tossed out of bankruptcy court, and kept fighting right up to the bitter end, 5 years later. Paying somewhere between $2 million and $3 million PER MONTH to the lawyers for the entire time.
I know, it's easy to look back and say "You guys should have..." because hindsight is 20/20, but I was predicting all of this and giving this same advice back in 2018, 2019, 2020, through 2024.
Sistema1927
US Veteran
Thanks to the discussion here I have marked my ballot and put it in the mail.
Matt_X
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2023
- Messages
- 340
- Reaction score
- 312
That was the point of my question. It was not, and IMO should not, be an inward looking organization with programs only for members. (ref.: the Mission Statement, in article II of the Bylaws)
Those patches were from a program that was open to the public.
In 1960 there were over 333,000 participants in just the 50 foot Jr. Marksmanship program. In 2004 the program was down to 9,000 adult and youth partipants. The way I read the article that is 9,000 participants for all "courses-of-fire ranging from Air Pistol to High Power Rifle."
Last edited:
