Oh my goodness. Look at the forcing cone on my 627 PC

muddocktor said:
If you look around in this forum, you will see a few other threads the doctor has going on about this gun. He had quite a few QC issues with his $1000 PC gun to start with and it was sent back for fixes and that is what they sent back to him. Some things fixed and others still lacking.

EDIT: Here is a link to his original thread. <<<LINK>>>
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Thank you for posting this and also in my original thread I think I mentioned that I looked over another 627 at csbelas that exhibited a number of the same issues as mine had, so it's not just mine.
 
Welcome to the world of S&W quality control!
The odds are like playing the slots in Vegas! It's been like that for a few decades. There's times things were going well, and times they were putting out junk.
Just ask a few silhouette IHMSA shooters from the 1970s. They'll give you an earful on what those fabled "-2" N frames were really like!
Sounds like these days are a new low point, especially in regards to the so-called Performance Center....
 
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That sucks Dr., sorry to hear about it.
I just checked the 627-5 V-Comp PC I just got and it's forcing cone and lead-in machining looks just fine. Sounds like you got a very poor example of QC, with a strange number of weird, unacceptable build issues? I know it's not what you want to hear, but except for the lack of any of the claimed PC custom action tuning on a $1600 PC gun, the build quality, fit and finish on the rest of the gun is top shelf. I also would demand a replacement weapon.
627-5 V-Comp Trigger Job
 
Forget sending it back again, just have your local gunsmith cut a new forcing cone for you for about $15 - 20. It will be better and you will see an improvement right away.
 
627 piece of garbage

Dr. Marneaus: I don't know why some of the posts seem to be giving you excuses, and reasons why you should accept that paper weight and send S&W a nice note extolling your fine revolver :eek:. I feel for you; it's a piece of junk, and I agree with those that advise you send it back and demand a new gun worthy of the Smith and Wesson brand:)
 
The Root Cause of Poor Quality

You cannot inspect quality "into" a product. The manufacturing process has to be strong enough to deliver a finished product that is manufactured to blueprint specifications. Work instructions, assembly instructions, production tooling, worker training, set-up instructions. first piece inspections, in-process inspections, checks and process audits are all part of the process to deliver a customer a quality product.

CNC machining centers deliver fantastic accuracy on machined parts if the programming and tooling are correct. If the operation has not been inspected, checked, gauged or verified; non-conforming parts are produced.

The manufacturing process produces exactly what management wants. Years ago I stopped a lot of team meetings about "rush parts" and nonconforming (out of print spec parts) with a simple question, "If you don't have time to repair the tooling and build good parts, when will you have time to rework the defective parts?" Then I quietly added, "You will rework these parts on your next production shift because you built them. My shift is not your rework shift!" More than once the Production Manager reluctantly said, "He is correct."

Apparently production numbers are more important than quality at S&W. This attitude is not unique.
 
Dr. M, Sorry to hear that your 627 still isn't right.
I've been a S&W fan for probably a half century. Use to be, you probably didn't even have to open the box to check your new S&W . Now the quality is so piss poor that you have to go over everything with a fine tooth comb. It's a Shame !! :mad:

And it's sad that a lot of the firearms I have seen come from the so called Performance Center are the worse. When I went on a tour of the S&W factory in 2005, I was told that the Performance Center didn't have a hourly quota like the rest of the factory.
That they worked on them until they were right. ( edit: I should have said as much time as was needed )

If S&W isn't careful what happen to Colt might happen to them. In the 70's if you wanted a 1911, your choice was a Colt or nothing. Oh, you actually wanted it to work out of the box? You wanted sights that you can actually use ? You wanted a beavetail safety ?

Then came along Springfield and gave the customer what they wanted in a 1911. Then Kimber. Then several others.. Now where is the Colt 1911 ?

When I worked part time at the LGS, when asked about a 1911.
I would tell them,, If you want to collect it and look at it, buy a Colt. If you want to actually use it and shoot it buy anything else..

I guess all the folks at S&W that knew How to build a fine firearms are all gone ...:( :( :mad:
 
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Engineer1911 said:
You cannot inspect quality "into" a product. The manufacturing process has to be strong enough to deliver a finished product that is manufactured to blueprint specifications. Work instructions, assembly instructions, production tooling, worker training, set-up instructions. first piece inspections, in-process inspections, checks and process audits are all part of the process to deliver a customer a quality product.

CNC machining centers deliver fantastic accuracy on machined parts if the programming and tooling are correct. If the operation has not been inspected, checked, gauged or verified; non-conforming parts are produced.

The manufacturing process produces exactly what management wants. Years ago I stopped a lot of team meetings about "rush parts" and nonconforming (out of print spec parts) with a simple question, "If you don't have time to repair the tooling and build good parts, when will you have time to rework the defective parts?" Then I quietly added, "You will rework these parts on your next production shift because you built them. My shift is not your rework shift!" More than once the Production Manager reluctantly said, "He is correct."

Apparently production numbers are more important than quality at S&W. This attitude is not unique.
Click to expand...

Engineer1911, I agree with you 100%. When I had a real job , the last 20 years of it was in Quality Review / Assurance. I saw the process go from building a Quality product, to talk about building a quality product. Just as long as the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, and the bean counters are happy..

I figure it hasn't gotten any better in the 15 years since I had a real job..
 
This thread, the Doctor's original thread about this gun, and a bunch of others begs a question.

At what point will current consumers of S&W revolvers quit making excuses for the company (send it back, they'll fix it) and stop buying these guns?

I personally have reached that point with two "modern" S&W revolvers that have given me fits trying for reliable ignition without excessively heavy DA trigger pulls. After a lot of time and money put into one of them it finally works well enough to keep. As for the other one, I'm going to put it back to the condition it was in when I bought it (i.e. factory condition) and sell it to someone who doesn't remember what S&W used to be like.

If I'm going to spend close to if not a bit more than $1000 on a revolver there is a world of old Smith's out there waiting for a new home. I'm done with today's S&W.

Dave
 
Well, I don't see enough of a problem to justify a new replacement. If this is the same revolver that was in the other thread, made by the same op. Dr. With all the problems this gun has had fixed, I'd say it's come a long way towards being what it was designed to be. Granted, it shouldn't have had that many problems. So just send it back.
 
Shoot it.Gun may surprise you.Most accurate 22 rifle i have the chamber looks bad but i don't want it fixed.If it wont shoot?Sorry you had any problem hope it turn's out good.
 
I have followed this saga from all your previous posts. I would not fire one round through that gun. The forcing cone fix will still leave you with a clocked barrel which will burn your eyes every time you pick that thing up.
Selling it just dumps your misery onto someone else.
I would call S&W and get to a manager and write down his/her name. CALMLY explain all your issues before and after its return to you. Ask them if they will exchange that revolver for one that he/she, the manager, has personally inspected before shipping it to your FFL. You may get hit with a transfer fee from your FFL but you will then have the option of accepting that gun from your dealer if it is not to your satisfaction.
Saying good luck, seems like an inappropriate sign-off to you and your troubles.
 
But how does it shoot? I'm really not seeing anything on that forcing cone that shouldn't be fixed with a good cleaning and some break in shooting. No barrel comes off the line perfectly smooth. $1000, hand lapped match barrels need several 100 rounds put through them before they settle in and all of the machining imperfections are gone. I think you are panicking needlessly. Shoot a couple of boxes of hot, jacketed round through it, give it a good cleaning, then see how it looks.
 
cmj8591 said:
But how does it shoot? I'm really not seeing anything on that forcing cone that shouldn't be fixed with a good cleaning and some break in shooting. No barrel comes off the line perfectly smooth. $1000, hand lapped match barrels need several 100 rounds put through them before they settle in and all of the machining imperfections are gone. I think you are panicking needlessly. Shoot a couple of boxes of hot, jacketed round through it, give it a good cleaning, then see how it looks.
Click to expand...

I dunno allow me to clarify better...these pics are highlighted to show the areas. That is not lead on the edges of the lands, that is steel that was essentially pushed rather than cut away.

Looking DOWN the bore, see these black areas? Those are in the grooves. As in, they are higher than the grooves.

Judging by the ridiculous a mount of lead from the probably 5 shots they put through it at the factory, it likely doesnt shoot so nice....

fchighlight1 by Andrew M, on Flickr

fchighlight2 by Andrew M, on Flickr
 
Dr. Marneaus said:
I dunno allow me to clarify better...these pics are highlighted to show the areas. That is not lead on the edges of the lands, that is steel that was essentially pushed rather than cut away.

Looking DOWN the bore, see these black areas? Those are in the grooves. As in, they are higher than the grooves.

Judging by the ridiculous a mount of lead from the probably 5 shots they put through it at the factory, it likely doesnt shoot so nice....
Click to expand...

Yes the smearing of the lands when the cone was cut is a bit strange to me. If the tool was dull or chattering you should see a reflection of that in the forcing cone surface. But I'm not seeing any evidence of that???

You say the black spots are high, how weird??? Maybe some residue of that ammo they were shooting?

Along them lines, what kind of silly putty bullets are they shooting at the factory? To leave all that leading in the mouth of the cone, and possibly the black spots, from shooting only a few proofing rounds has me scatching my head.

But finally I can't agree with the guys saying you should accept this. Do what has been proposed before, get someone on the phone and politely demand a new weapon.
 
Dr. Marneaus said:
I dunno allow me to clarify better...
Click to expand...

I agree with what TomS says about burrs. At least that's what it looks like to me. Those are a natural result of the machining process. You don't see them in every gun but they do occur. They shouldn't have any effect on the operation of the gun and will go away after you put some jacketed bullets through the bore.

By the way, great photos!
 
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