Old drilling 16 ga over 9.3 mm

[raljr1]

So an acquaintance has this old, exposed hammers, drilling. Not damascus barrels. He says he cannot find a manufacturer stamped on it. Offered it tp me with a couple boxes of ammo. He's asking $1000. Dont know much about these, but this is intriguing. Asking for what is it, and is it worth it....thanks in advance.

Robert

 

[Rudi]

Very cool piece, always wanted one. Not sure on price. Do some looking at gun sites and auctions. Good luck.

 

[s&wchad]

It's a back action side lock drilling that looks pretty rough to me. With no makers mark, I'd guess it's a Belgium guild gun. The condition of the bores and the lockup are important, but I assume they're pretty rough too. You could pull the barrels and look for proof marks and other spec's, but I'd pass on it.

 

[Rpg]

Most of these are in chambered in16ga. Measure the chambers: I believe it’s for a short 16 ga cartridge. Although you can use modern 16:ga ammo in it, I’d only use low pressure ammo from RST.

Drillings were in demand in continental Europe and Africa for their 2 in 1 form in the first half of the 20th century. A good deal of their market didn’t have the wherewithal to own both a shotgun and a rifle.

I wonder whether that gun went to Africa because of rifle caliber: 9.3 x 72S is like a 375 H$H for double guns. The 375 H&H was primarily chambered in bolt action rifles (although a rimed version was offered for double gun use).

The 9.2x72R is more powerful than needed for most continental game. African game offers larger and more dangerous game than that found in Europe so a break action gun chambered in a cartridge that’s equivalent to the 375 H&H would have been welcomed in Africa.

I agree it’s probably a guild gun, built in Belgium or Germany.

If I had the chance to examine it in person, and I found nothing that concerned me, $1,000 isn’t out of line, especially with the ammunition that’s part of the deal. That ammo is pricey.

 

[MarkL_01]

Not to argue, but I think you've described the 9.3x74R, not the 9.3x72R. The 72mm one was much less powerful than the 74mm.

 

[raljr1]

Most of these are in chambered in16ga. Measure the chambers: I believe it’s for a short 16 ga cartridge. Although you can use modern 16:ga ammo in it, I’d only use low pressure ammo from RST.



Drillings were in demand in continental Europe and Africa for their 2 in 1 form in the first half of the 20th century. A good deal of their market didn’t have the wherewithal to own both a shotgun and a rifle.



I wonder whether that gun went to Africa because of rifle caliber: 9.3 x 72S is like a 375 H$H for double guns. The 375 H&H was primarily chambered in bolt action rifles (although a rimed version was offered for double gun use).



The 9.2x72R is more powerful than needed for most continental game. African game offers larger and more dangerous game than that found in Europe so a break action gun chambered in a cartridge that’s equivalent to the 375 H&H would have been welcomed in Africa.



I agree it’s probably a guild gun, built in Belgium or Germany.



If I had the chance to examine it in person, and I found nothing that concerned me, $1,000 isn’t out of line, especially with the ammunition that’s part of the deal. That ammo is pricey.

He said it chambers 2-3/4" shells. Also told me that the ammo was $75 per box....i think I'll take a closer look.

Robert

 

[WR Moore]

Since shotgun chambers also have to allow for the crimped end of the shell to open, even a too short chamber will accept a loaded shell. If you don't have a fired 16 gage shell, measure the chambers. They should be 2 3/4 but might not be on a hammer gun. I'll punt on the safety of chamber reaming to correct length.

 

[DWalt]

Some are fearful of firing shotshells in a slightly short chamber. I am not one of them.

 

[smoothshooter]

May be a “ Guild “ gun.
If it is tight, definitely worth the money if the rifle bore is not pitted.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Think of 9.3x72mm as a 38-55 on steroids! Not a powder puff, but not even close to a "Dangerous Game" Rifle! It could be Black Powder Only or a smokeless chambering.

The barrel flats should tell you which loading it uses. And in mm which shot shell it is chambered for. (I believe that 2 3/4" is 70mm, 65mm is far more common) It may tell you about the chokes on the barrels too. 1/4= Im.Cy., 1/2=Mod., 3/4=Im. Mod., and 4/4= full (the last 2 are the most common on paper cartridge shotguns)

Ivan

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Way back - I was stationed up in Indiana.
My Buddy Eddie calls and asks ‘Would you like to take a ride up to a Gun Store.’
So away we go to North Manchester in terrible weather.
He buys a Drilling. Double 16 over 9.3x74R. Austrian made by a small custom gunsmith.
I tell folks it’s the only time I ever rode in a Simca, went to North Manchester, with somebody who bought a Drilling.
Trying to recall - the rear Rifle Sight flips up from the Rib when you select Rifle, or maybe you move a switch?
It’s a German thing!

 

[smoothshooter]

May be a “ Guild “ gun.
If it is tight, definitely worth the money if the rifle bore is not pitted.

 

[smoothshooter]

Way back - I was stationed up in Indiana.
My Buddy Eddie calls and asks ‘Would you like to take a ride up to a Gun Store.’
So away we go to North Manchester in terrible weather.
He buys a Drilling. Double 16 over 9.3x74R. Austrian made by a small custom gunsmith.
I tell folks it’s the only time I ever rode in a Simca, went to North Manchester, with somebody who bought a Drilling.
Trying to recall - the rear Rifle Sight flips up from the Rib when you select Rifle, or maybe you move a switch?
It’s a German thing!

There will be a selector on the top of the wrist that will raise the rear sight. The mechanics of how that works is pretty fascinating.
The front trigger will then fire the rifle barrel.on some guns, pushing the trigger forward until it clicks will make it a set trigger.
Do not dry fire the hammers or the set trigger mechanism so you don’t break anything.
There should be a date code stamped on the underside of one of the barrels, along with the length of the shotgun chambers in millimeters. This dimension tells you the maximum overall length of the CRIMPED shell to use. Do not shoot 2 3/4” shells in a 2 1/2” chamber. If the gun has the shorter chambers, sometimes they can be lengthened to the 2 3/4” length. Never 3”.
Contact someone like Simmons or Briley about the viability of doing that. Someone that knows about the old European guns.

 

[smoothshooter]

Most of these are in chambered in16ga. Measure the chambers: I believe it’s for a short 16 ga cartridge. Although you can use modern 16:ga ammo in it, I’d only use low pressure ammo from RST.

Drillings were in demand in continental Europe and Africa for their 2 in 1 form in the first half of the 20th century. A good deal of their market didn’t have the wherewithal to own both a shotgun and a rifle.

I wonder whether that gun went to Africa because of rifle caliber: 9.3 x 72S is like a 375 H$H for double guns. The 375 H&H was primarily chambered in bolt action rifles (although a rimed version was offered for double gun use).

The 9.2x72R is more powerful than needed for most continental game. African game offers larger and more dangerous game than that found in Europe so a break action gun chambered in a cartridge that’s equivalent to the 375 H&H would have been welcomed in Africa.

I agree it’s probably a guild gun, built in Belgium or Germany.

If I had the chance to examine it in person, and I found nothing that concerned me, $1,000 isn’t out of line, especially with the ammunition that’s part of the deal. That ammo is pricey.

9.3x72 Rimmed is not a overly powerful round. Was originally loaded with black powder and lead bullets. Good medium big game cartridge.
I think brass can be made from more common fired cases like maybe .303 British or 38/55. If you get the gun and reload the brass ( neck sizing only ), the brass should last you for many years.
Measure the length of the chambers. In an older gun like this, I would not fire 2 3/4” shotshells in a 2 1/2” chamber like a lot of these old guns have. Sometimes lengthening them to 2 3/4” is an option. Do not lengthen them to 3”. Big No-No.

 

[444 Magnum]

There are forums that specialize in the drillings and guild guns. They have experts there much like this forum has S&W experts.

There should be markings on the barrel that will help date the firearm and the type/strength steel.

This gun is fairly plain in comparison to most of the guild guns I have seen. They usually have more engraving, carving etc. For example, my drilling has an engraved cartridge compartment built into the butt stock. The recoil pad is not likely original which will hurt the value for drilling collectors.

In my experience, the value of unmarked drillings is in the art work. Marked drillings by known makers in certain caliber/gauges also command more money.

Don't buy it for the ammo.

 

[raljr1]

Thanks for all the guidance. I think I'll let this one pass.

Robert

 

[Ruger 13]

It would be worth a grand to me!

 

[2152hq]

There are 3 versions of the 9.3x72R.
There is a 9x72R as well.

Proof marks will tell the story of where made and proofed. Chamber lenghts, bore dia (not groove dia generally!). Sometimes cartridge case length. With all that you still need a chamber cast to solve the 'what caliber/case does it take?' in many instances.

16ga is likely 'short chambered' 2 9/16" was the common length. Again bbl flat proof marks are handy. 16/65 marking would show a 65mm case chamber length and that is a 'short chamber'.
Many have been lengthened over time.
16/70 would be a 2 3/4" chamber.

Bbl maker marks are usualy present. They are usually different from the actual gun makers mark.
There is actually no such thing as a 'Guild Gun' though the popular term has taken on a life and is used to describe most any German/Austrian and some Belgian arms that don't shout a makers name in plain sight.

Looks like a 'set trigger' on the front trigger for the rifle bbl. Not all that uncommon but still a nice touch.