On Solar Energy Sources

[Madelyn Vernon]

I have been really curious about Solar Panels as a source of energy. I have read that this kind will be more cost efficient in the long run although, you still have to investment a quite huge amount of money to purchase it. My question is, Does anybody here actually have solar panel either at home of workplace? How is the consumption and cost?

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

Interesting post - will be interested to see responses - a mystery area to me also. Understand there a number of rip-off folks exploiting this area.

 

[Narrowback]

I don't personally, but we have a course that we teach regarding it. The panels have come a long way with efficiency and micro-inverters, etc. They are still a hefty investment.

If I was considering it, the 1st thing I would do is check with the State PUC to see what is offered for rebates, etc. Mass has done well by putting so many cents/KW-hour into a fund so that it makes it more feasible.

The other thing to consider is whether you want to be entirely off the grid or on the grid. Off the grid means a big expense in initial costs for batteries and maintenance of them. In Maine, the rebates are only for grid-tied systems where it offsets what you use from the utility company.

The site assessment makes a huge difference too. IMHO, I would not put them on the roof. The NEC (National Electrical Code) accepted many changes this cycle (2014) because fire departments were in danger from cutting into cables below the roof. If you have the room, I would have them pole mounted.

Lastly, unless your pockets are very deep, changing your lifestyle is a necessity. Converting high energy use items to gas or LED lighting,etc to lighten the load so you won't need a huge array is important too.

If you are looking for someone to install them, they should be NABCEP certified. In fact in Maine they have to be to qualify for rebates.

Good luck!

 

[Pete99004]

Solar panels ($15-$40K depending on your needs that will need to be maintained and replaced in 10 to 15 yrs) are just the start...you will still need a battery bank to run the house hold appliances ($4000-$7000) that will need to be replaced in 10 years, power inverter (or two @ about $3000-$5000 each) that will need to be replaced every 10yrs. or so - voltage limiter and charger/maintainer not to mention a good electrical background education if your going to install and repair all the equipment yourself. I've considered a small system for backup, but even that system is quite expensive.
I don't see it as a viable product for the normal home owner at this time. Things could change rapidly though, so now is a good time to learn all you can about the systems and look into what your individual needs might be. But beware as there are a lot of con artist out there right now. Be sure you are dealing with a reputable outfit that is well versed in these systems or you will get a system that will cost you 3 or 4 times what you should have paid for it!

Pete

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

Interesting responses. Looks like serious homework is necessary before spending cash. My idea was for emergency lighting and possibly support for TV, well pump, other minor things. Tending to lean toward a gas (propane) generator for emergency/backup. We have lost power for up to 5 days. Have propane heaters and fireplace insert (and 15 acres of trees). Hope to see additional posts.

 

[finesse_r]

I always found the sun to be the best source of solar energy.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Just put 5K of solar on my RV. The tax write off is about 30%. Depends on where you live I guess but we spend our winters in AZ where the sun shines almost everyday. It allows me to have power for lights, a water pump and a furnace fan everyday on my RV. I wouldn't do it where I live in the NW but would install an array if I lived in the SW for a residence. I think it would pay for itself in about 5 years.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

The problem with solar is that the technology is advancing so fast that everything is obsolete by the time it is made. I expect that in 10-15 years solar will be standard in houses where the sun shines, but now may be too early - government credit notwithstanding.

 

[roarindan]

I always found the sun to be the best source of solar energy.

I have a large selection of solar powered hand tools,
a solar powered hammer, a saw and a crowbar!!

 

[Pete99004]

I have a large selection of solar powered hand tools,
a solar powered hammer, a saw and a crowbar!!

Yea, but the problem with those solar powered hammers is that they make my arm tired.

Pete

 

[venomballistics]

I see a lot of this from "off the grid" treehugger types.
I really think they are playing poker with the facts here.
the system goes like this.
sun energizes the panel.
Panel charges batteries.
power inverter makes that stored DC into 120V AC.

each point of conversion is good for a 10% loss due to heat.

Sir Isac Newton states that theres no such thing as a free lunch, paraphrased of course.

Now if we have a panel with a 12V output at 1.5A, we have 18W where P=I*V (18 = 12 X 1.5)

the same equation applies to consumption as it does to generation.
What appliance do you have that can run on 18W?

One can play with duty cycle and use larger wattage for short durations
Perhaps charge all day to brew the following mornings pot of coffee.
Run a lamp for an hour at night.

But asking this system to run your refrigerator ... forget it.

This duty cycle thing allows for something of a magic trick to mask the truth about the systems shortcomings in ideal conditions.

Now, if you had an array of panels capable of actually meeting the demands of your home, a week of overcast conditions, starting monday, would have you in the stone age by tuesday night.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Several years ago I put together a unit for camping and hunting trips. 12V 120AH SLA deep cycle battery, 1000W power inverter (12VDC to 120VAC), 40W PV solar panel with 12V charge controller, all mounted on a wheeled dolly.

Runs CFL and LED lights all night. Keeps cell phones charged. Powers the laptop computer. Will run a radio, small TV, small refrigerator, even the Mr. Coffee in the morning. Then 6 to 8 hours in the sunlight and the battery is topped off for the next night. Total cost was about $300.

Between trips I keep it set up at home as a back-up for power outages. Solar panel has 50 feet of line so it can be set up remotely outside. Will run a couple of lights almost indefinitely. Will power the blower on the forced air gas furnace. Will run the refrigerator for 10 minutes every hour to prevent frozen food from thawing. Will run a TV, power tools, etc, but those can drain power very quickly, and with only 120AH storage you can't be a power hog.

Shortly after putting this together the power went down at my club while the Super Bowl game was on. I ran home, picked up my unit, put the game back on for a couple of hours. Needless to say, I didn't have to pay for my beers that day!

Last year I bought a 21' travel trailer. It has 2 on-board 12V deep cycle batteries, charging from the tow vehicle while driving. I will be adding hook-ups for my other battery (bringing total storage to over 300AH) and a couple of PV solar panels (will probably go for about 200W capacity for this use). Keep the camper parked by the house so an extension cord can bring the power inside if needed. Thinking about a small gasoline generator (3-4 KW) with 12VDC charging capability, should be able to fully charge the batteries in under an hour if needed with minimal gasoline consumption. For now I'll just start the truck and let it idle for a half-hour if I see my batteries are getting low at night.

A full off-grid or grid-tie system for the house would be very expensive and take a long period to pay for itself. A small system for back-up, camping, etc, is easy and relatively inexpensive.

 

[2hawk]

PV's are gaining ground in the cost/benefit equation, and there's no question they will continue to be used more and more where the cost of transmission justifies their use.

Good article here, for just a quick look at one situation:
An Off-Grid Solar Community | GreenBuildingAdvisor.com

 

[Road Rat]

Interesting responses. Looks like serious homework is necessary before spending cash. My idea was for emergency lighting and possibly support for TV, well pump, other minor things. Tending to lean toward a gas (propane) generator for emergency/backup. We have lost power for up to 5 days. Have propane heaters and fireplace insert (and 15 acres of trees). Hope to see additional posts.

We went with propane generator after being out of power for 8 days back in early 2007. We had a Generac system put in that can run the entire household.....4 cylinder Toyota engine that is connected to our 2,000 gal propane tanks. It starts automatically 15 seconds after power goes off. Wouldn't be without it!!!

I think the total cost was about $15K before some rebates...final cost to us was about $9K.....

 

[Onomea]

Road Rat, with the 2K gal propane tanks, how long will your generator run your household?

 

[Iggy]

I use solar tracker systems to power submersible pumps which supply water to several mile long pipelines and provide water at strategic watering points for cattle on the ranch. Panels follow the sun across the sky in the day time. 25 to 45% more effiecient than a static array.

The panels move to face the sun in the morning and warming gases expand and cause the panels to follow the sun as it arcs to the west and return the east to await sunrise to start over.

 

[Dennis The B]

The problem with solar, is that it's a "one off" technology. For large population areas, there has to be power generation on a demand basis. That is, daytime and the economy, require large amounts of power, and there's no way to boost electrical output via solar.

With conventional power generating stations, one only needs to feed more coal, gas, or increase the heat from nuclear, to add additional kilowatts. You just can't part the clouds when it's overcast, especially in the northern climes where winter spells cloudy days for long stretches.

 

[PatriotX]

...With conventional power generating stations, one only needs to feed more coal, gas, or increase the heat from nuclear, to add additional kilowatts. You just can't part the clouds when it's overcast, especially in the northern climes where winter spells cloudy days for long stretches.

Your (truthful) statement above is exactly why we need to invest as a nation into energy storage devices and strategies.

Battery tech improvements would directly leverage other savings and efficiencies.

Imagine generating energy with this near-record-low oil, and storing it until it's needed.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I'm not a tree hugger. As a matter of fact I've cut down way more trees than the average person. Tree huggers hear trees scream when they are cut. I don't hear anything.

Solar has it's place just as wind turbines do. Solar can't replace hydro, nukes or even coal fired plants but they will replace a small gas generator. My frig, heater and range runs on propane, just like the buses in Bakersfield CA. Lets say you live a mile from a power line. Call the power company and see how much they will charge you to install a line to your residence. You would be money ahead to use propane and solar if you lived where you could get sun 275 days a year.

 

[BaaBaa]

One really good source of info on all types of alternative energy including solar is Home Power Magazine.

You can do grid intertied which keeps the grid as your battery but you won't have electric if the power is off the grid. Avoids the current issue of batteries not being great. New battery technology should change that.

FWIW We have been running several different solar systems for years. Break even point varies by type of solar. Solar hot water usually hits break even in less than 4 years. Solar hot air for space heating about 5. Solar PV takes the longest but depending on location and electric rates can be as low as 7 years and as high as 15.