Once Again, Killing Thieves has Consequences

[SF VET]

I have firmly placed in my mind and memory, than other than to protect myself or my family from physical harm, I will NOT shoot to protect my property from theft. I don't want to deal with the legal consequences of such a "knee-jerk" reaction. I have been shooting competition and IDPA for 15 years, and one of the things that is now natural and instinctive for me is keeping my finger off the trigger until I need to fire.

I can replace a car or other possession far easier than I can deal with the after effects of shooting someone. As for this "beer" shoot, letting the crooks take a case of beer would have been a far simpler event in the clerk's personal life than what he has to deal with now.

I have had enough stressful events in my life that I much prefer peace and harmony now. Protecting or avenging my property now with legal force isn't going to do that for me. I just want to get up in the morning and have my coffee and read the news, and not have to fret about some great complication in my life.

SF VET

 

[Miami_JBT]

Unfortunately our laws are way too much in favor of the criminals.

Our laws were originally drafted to prevent mob/vigilantly violence.

In some jurisdictions, it has become the twisted mess we see today where criminals are coddled.

I have a very negative view of thievery. It is literally stealing from my life. It was hours, days, weeks, months, and years that went into the work to make the money to get the items someone steals. They're literally stealing my life.

 

[Miami_JBT]

It's not that the police don't care, it's the DAs. I read that flagrant shoplifting is rampant in many American cities because stealing items valued less than $950 is simply not prosecuted. Stores are closing right and left as the shelves are literally picked bare.

Welcome to Woke America.

FL Republicans raised the dollar amount of what is now a felony. It used to be anything over $299 stolen was a felony. Now it is $799.

Thanks Republicans.

 

[biku324]

In New Mexico, police handle most petty misdemeanor and misdemeanor crimes, no ADS involved - therevare exceptions. Here the felony dollar limit on larceny-like crimes is $500. In practical effect, there isn't a loss of more than a couple of thousand dollars, the defendant will plead to a misdemeanor.

 

[RCL-09]

Then why did the DA agree to the murder charge?

You'd have to ask the DA

 

[Oldsalt66]

Often times the process is the punishment.

 

[biku324]

You'd have to ask the DA

Precisely. No DA will continue a murder case that clearly contravenes valid statutes.

 

[RCL-09]

Precisely. No DA will continue a murder case that clearly contravenes valid statutes.

Oh, okay, no unethical DAs charging people for political or other reasons...

Trail of evidence

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

The National Registry of Exonerations - Exoneration Registry

 

[Muss Muggins]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned Tennessee v. Conner, the SCOTUS decision that prohibits LE from shooting fleeing felons without extenuating circumstances. . .

Because the shooter wasn’t an LEO, but I’m just spitballin’ here . . .

 

[Muss Muggins]

He’s not wrong, though, so there’s that . . .

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

 

[biku324]

Oh, okay, no unethical DAs charging people for political or other reasons...

Trail of evidence

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

The National Registry of Exonerations - Exoneration Registry

An oldie but a goodie.

Fish was tried because he shot an unarmed guy 3 tomes who was running at him and shouting threats. There was no testimony that he thought the guy was armed, as I recall. Besides, the case was in Arizona, where both the laws and criminal procedure aren't like Texas.

He was convicted by a jury, but the case was overturned on appeal because the judge didn't allow a specific (wait for it) JURY INSTRUCTION). Please refer back to page one of this thread where I kinda sorta mentioned the necessity of knowing what jury instructions say about applying the law.

 

[RCL-09]

An oldie but a goodie.

Fish was tried because he shot an unarmed guy 3 tomes who was running at him and shouting threats. There was no testimony that he thought the guy was armed, as I recall. Besides, the case was in Arizona, where both the laws and criminal procedure aren't like Texas.

He was convicted by a jury.

I'm glad to hear that there no unethical DAs that charge people unjustly or
frivolously for political or other reasons.

 

[RCL-09]

Bottom line.

Can lethal force be used in Texas to protect property, including against theft?

Absolutely YES.

 

[biku324]

Good grief. Fish would have been arrested (for shooting an unarmed man) anywhere I've worked in policing, and any DA I've worked with likely would have contuned charges at least to a plea bargain. His attorneys rolled the dice on a jury trial, lost, then won on appeal.

At this point, the Defendant saw the Victim halfway down the hill accelerating towards the Defendant.   The Defendant yelled at the Victim that he had not hurt the dogs, but the Victim continued to come at him, with his eyes crossed and looking crazy and enraged, cursing at the Defendant and yelling that he was going to hurt the Defendant.   The Defendant, who was pointing the gun at the ground, yelled to the Victim to get back and leave the Defendant alone, but the Victim continued to race toward him, accelerating, yelling profanities and swinging his arms.   The Defendant thought the Victim was going to kill him and he had nowhere to run because the dogs were at either side of the trail.  

At one point the Defendant yelled to the Victim to stop or he would shoot.   The two men continued yelling at each other with the Victim “doing this weird kind of punching thing” until the Victim was about five to eight feet from Defendant, at which point Defendant shot the Victim three times in the chest.  

Defendant told investigators the entire incident lasted no more than three seconds, or alternatively, five to ten seconds.   In various statements he made to investigating officers, Defendant said the Victim yelled something like, “Don't shoot!   Don't shoot!   Don't shoot my dogs!”   At the time of the shooting, Defendant did not know the Victim, had never met him before, and knew nothing about him.
STATE v. FISH | FindLaw

 

[Muss Muggins]

Bottom line.

Can lethal force be used in Texas to protect property, including against theft?

Absolutely YES.

Apparently not, without getting arrested. Call your first witness . . .

 

[SchemaEnigma]

....They're figuratively stealing my life.

FIFY........

 

[Doug M.]

It is not Tennessee v. Connor, it is Tennessee v. Garner, and that is a 4th amendment seizure/civil rights case, not a criminal law case. Some states changed their criminal laws to reflect that as a general rule, some did not. Some only applied it to LE.
I do not care that this offender is dead. Not one bit. That does not mean that the shooting was a sound decision, regardless of whether or not it was legally justified under Texas law. It means only that I do not care and cannot mourn this death; as others have noted, the tolerance of criminals has a corrosive effect.
As a general rule, cops arrest based on probable cause to believe a crime was committed and don't have to give a lot of consideration to the defenses that may apply (that is a gross over simplification and may vary). I am aware of really clear cut cases in which no arrest was made because the defense was so well established even early in the investigation. Prosecutors may or may not file a charge; we have a lot of discretion in filing decisions. As for prosecutors filing crud that should not have been, well, I have seen too much of that. The Nifongs, Mosbys, and others of their ilk who have filed utter garbage are not of my tribe and should lose their licenses.

 

[RCL-09]

I do not care that this offender is dead. Not one bit. That does not mean that the shooting was a sound decision, regardless of whether or not it was legally justified under Texas law. It means only that I do not care and cannot mourn this death; as others have noted, the tolerance of criminals has a corrosive effect.

As a general rule, cops arrest based on probable cause to believe a crime was committed and don't have to give a lot of consideration to the defenses that may apply (that is a gross over simplification and may vary). I am aware of really clear cut cases in which no arrest was made because the defense was so well established even early in the investigation. Prosecutors may or may not file a charge; we have a lot of discretion in filing decisions. As for prosecutors filing crud that should not have been, well, I have seen too much of that. The Nifongs, Mosbys, and others of their ilk who have filed utter garbage are not of my tribe and should lose their licenses.

Spot on on both points.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Apparently not, without getting arrested. Call your first witness . . .

Oh, okay, no unethical DAs charging people for political or other reasons...

Trail of evidence

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

The National Registry of Exonerations - Exoneration Registry

He’s not wrong, though, so there’s that . . .

No he’s not “wrong”, (well, sort of, since hollow point 10mm was originally the FBI loading, and hollow point bullets are the common law enforcement loadings) but in any case, he employed the non-sequitur fallacy in regards to determining the actual legal efficacy of the shoot.

Here in Florida, whether or not a self defense shooting is legally permissible, isn’t dependent on the type of weapon or ammunition employed by the assault victim who fires in legitimate self defense under the statutes.

 

[fatcat3]

Dallas district attorney John Cruezot not prosecuting minor crimes | The Texas Tribune

Dallas County DA generally will not file charges for theft under 750 dollars.

It makes it very tough on store owners and honest citizens, not that “Let ‘em go Creuzot” cares about anyone other than the criminal class that elected him.

So if I make $15.00 an hour a thief is allowed to steel 50 hours of my life before the DA will do anything. One 40 hour work week plus 10 hours, assuming that I don't have to pay rent, taxes, but food, etc. So in reality the thief gets to steel 2-3 weeks or more of my life before the system will do anything

Just my two cents only use a gun in self defense of self or loved ones from physical harm. However , another thief dead won't effect my sleep any.