Open Carry In Public Restaurants - What Would You Do?

[Smoke]

I really don't care if it was holstered properly or not. The first that would have been hit was my little granddaughter or my daughter, not me. !

Ok but again the odds of a pistol just arbitrarily "going off" are vanishing small. Have you ever in all your life ever hear of a single instance of the hammer/ striker on any modern pistol falling without outside human involvement? You are more likely to be hit by waste falling from an airplane then you are to be shot by a gun that's just sitting there.

If someone points a gun loaded at combat ready at your face and tells you not to worry "it won't go off", would you just smile and stare down the hole? I think as soon as you had the chance someone would be in for a good arse whooping, correct?

No one pointed a loaded, combat ready hand gun at you. The guy sat down with a pistol properly holstered in such a way that the muzzle was oriented in your direction.

Let me ask you this did you move? If not,why not?

 

[Smoke]

Of course, I'm able to place four non-thumb fingers completely under my food without bending my knees, so I might be bending differently than some folks.

I can put both hands under my fd with out bending my knees I can even hold my fd over my head without bending my knees.

 

[cowart]

If I am pocket/iwb/owb or pretty much ANY other manner of carry where the muzzle is facing the floor, I would have to be doing some kind of headstand/yoga/or other very unnatural positions to sweep someone.

If you are pocket carrying and sit down to eat in a restaurant, your gun is now horizontal, and sweeping anyone in front of you.

 

[Engine 21]

It could have been a teachable moment for him if you approached him as a friend and a fellow gun lover.

It could be that it never even occurred to him that his securely-holstered gun was pointing at somebody.
He doesn't automatically earn the title "idiot" in my book. He'd have to be doing something more malignant than possessing a holstered gun to reach "idiot" status.

A quote that I learned from a very wise old friend:
"I didn't know that I didn't know."
Maybe he just didn't know.

If your carrying a firearm there is no such thing as I didn't know. You need to know where that weapon is at all times and where it is pointed. If you don't - I didn't know is indefensible.

 

[keith44spl]

Well,
Muzzle discipline is paramount.

Good thing you saw this laps in judgment by the offender.

Asking for another table would work for me......

You did get everyone outta harms way....right?

When in the public....expect the public.

Poor manners abound everywhere now in days.



.

 

[hangnoose]

POCKET CARRY SWEEPING

If I am rear pocket carrying & sit at a restaurant it's only a threat to myself. If I were front pocket carrying and sat down, yes the angle would come up, but would be at such an angle to hit myself most likely, a person sitting within 3-4' across from me or the floor app 3'-4' in front of me. In theory I guess it's possible I could kneecap someone real close, someone much taller might be able to hit someone sitting across from them in the groin/belly I suppose. In reality nobody would know I was carrying & nobody would be concerned. I don't care who you are, I doubt anyone enjoys having a gun pointing at them, loaded or empty,holstered or not, LET ALONE AT THEIR FAMILY.

 

[LoadedRound]

If I felt the situation wasn't safe for myself and my family, I would have changed it. Maybe another table, maybe another restaurant.

It would be the same whether the possible threat were a firearm or any other possible means of harm. If you're not posing an imminent threat, I really don't care what or how you carry. I might watch you a little closer....It all depends.

 

[MProSrSh9]

For me, it's all about the "local custom," as well as the "legality." If folks OC in a given locale as a matter of custom, then that locale is used to it, LE is used to it, all is well. I might OC there. But I'm more than likely to CC. Why expose my firepower and make myself a target?

Where I live in NJ, OC of hand guns of any sort is expressly verboten except for on-duty LEOs! CC is only allowed with a NJ CCW permit, which is almost never given out (even retired LEOs have difficulty). Oddly enough, is is legal to OC long guns (i.e. "field hunting, etc."), but good luck to you if you try hunting inner city rats in Newark!

I think if the pro-2A gods were to wave a magic wand and make all forms of carry legal in NJ tomorrow, I would still not want to OC in NJ, simply because the public, in general, and much of local LE in particular, isn't culturally "ready" for it. I can see walking into that Panera OCing and having them SWAT me! I can see many elements of LE in the state that would freak and draw upon seeing someone OCing, even if it were legal. simply because their mindset only allows for LEOs to be armed... Maybe not so much out where I live, but more in the inner cities.

In fact, just yesterday, for the first time, I exercised my FL CWFL a bit and CC'ed in one of my favorite restaurants in the middle of the Sunday Brunch crowd (in Fl, of course ). No issues whatsoever. The more comfortable I and others get, the better.

A funny story... earlier in the week, I was in a local grocery store (not carrying at all), having just finished up at a local outdoor range. When I went to the checkout counter to pay for my items, I reached in my pocket for change and out with the change came a few stray AE 115 9mm FMJ live rounds... Thankfully, I kept my Poker face on and fumbled the contents in my hand a bit more, while I put it all back into my pocket. It doesn't seem like the clerk was looking to closely at my hand, (PHEW!). I just whipped out a $20.00. I got my change, and my groceries, and left. No issues, but I still wonder if she saw what was in my hand... I was freaking a little on the inside.... It's funny now, but a little unsettling then. Point being, if I'm still that queasy about such incidents, imagine the public when encountering those OCing, if not from a community where it's "custom practice."

 

[aphelion]

The way I see it, if some "nut-job" were to come into the restaurant and try to rob or harm someone then there would be a lot of people "glad" that the good guy was there with his "legally" carried firearm.
Just my 2 cents!!
Don

I considered this scenario. So a guy who I nothing about, know nothing about his competency, nothing about his gun whether it has been dinked with or is in good mechanical shape, has his gun pointed at me or my family. In comes the nutjob who opens up with his wonder nine/ebr/shotgun. So now Mr. Open Carry is attempting to draw his pistol from from a sitting position in the excitement of the moment while it is pointed at me and my family. No thanks, amigo.

I'd have moved without making a fuss. I won't let people I know and trust point guns at me. Why would I let strangers do so?

 

[Brian41]

I think I'd have asked for a different table myself and not made a fuss over it either. I wouldn't be real comfortable with the guy's gun pointed in our direction but doubt I'd say anything to him either.
I don't often see open carry here although it's legal to do so. Anyone I've seen doing it has carried in a regular belt holster though. I do wish it was a more common thing although I wouldn't do much of it myself. I do like the fact that if my gun would happen to get exposed while carrying concealed is not illegal here.
On the few occasions here I've seen open carry I have noticed that nobody else seemed to have even noticed. I guess people are used to seeing people carry items on their belt and are too much into their own sphere they don't pay attention to those around them.

 

[PA Reb]

Ok but again the odds of a pistol just arbitrarily "going off" are vanishing small. Have you ever in all your life ever hear of a single instance of the hammer/ striker on any modern pistol falling without outside human involvement? You are more likely to be hit by waste falling from an airplane then you are to be shot by a gun that's just sitting there.




No one pointed a loaded, combat ready hand gun at you. The guy sat down with a pistol properly holstered in such a way that the muzzle was oriented in your direction.

Let me ask you this did you move? If not,why not?

You make good points "Smoke" and believe me, I appreciate your take as much as I do all the others. In answer to your question - No, I didn't move everyone to another table. I asked my daughter to move her chair slightly to her right and then asked her to move her daughter's chair to the left leaving me in a direct line with the weapon. I suppose I wasn't as concerned about me as I was for them. I also knew from experience that there was little chance of something crazy happening but at least I had the peace of mind that they were out of the most dangerous zone if it did. But, and in my mind, he did indeed have a loaded to go auto pointed straight at us. I guess it all goes back to my early "Hunters Safety Training Course" I took when I was a youngster - Never allow a loaded gun to sweep past anyone for any reason, always keep the muzzle pointed at the ground or in a safe direction, etc. When I saw that large bore hole pointing towards two of the people I love so much, my own personal protection instincts kicked into high gear. That's about all I can say about that.

Again, I respect that man's right to carry, open or concealed and he wasn't doing anything that made me think he may have been crazy in any way. I didn't like his seemingly "look at me attitude" though - all he had to do was pull his t-shirt out of his pants and it wouldn't have been so obvious where the gun was positioned. But, when you dump too much soy sauce on your food because there's a really big loaded gun pointed right at you and those you love, it makes one a little nervous as well as overloaded with sodium !

Thanks again to everyone who offered opinions. Its good discussion like this coming from very well trained individuals that make this forum a great place!

 

[USAF385]

I can put both hands under my fd with out bending my knees I can even hold my fd over my head without bending my knees.

Yeah.... That auto correct definitely changed the meaning of the post!

 

[MProSrSh9]

You make good points "Smoke" and believe me, I appreciate your take as much as I do all the others. In answer to your question - No, I didn't move everyone to another table. I asked my daughter to move her chair slightly to her right and then asked her to move her daughter's chair to the left leaving me in a direct line with the weapon.

Yeah... I think requesting a full move would have raised suspicion of the staff... Was the restaurant full? Even more difficult then. They'd surely want to know why... And if you told them the truth, then it risks a confrontation with the other family. It could get ugly.

 

[PA Reb]

Yeah... I think requesting a full move would have raised suspicion of the staff... Was the restaurant full? Even more difficult then. They'd surely want to know why... And if you told them the truth, then it risks a confrontation with the other family. It could get ugly.

Yes sir, it was packed!

 

[ironhead7544]

AND yet another "OLD GUY's" story:
1962 and I was a "Newbie" starting in Law Enforcement. (This was the era of furnish your own service weapon) A fellow Officer just out of the U.S. Army had purchased a new nickeled Colt Government Model .45acp. We were waiting for court to start, waiting in Com Center with several other Officers from different Agencies. "Bobby" having a different type service weapon (and a fancy one with pearl grips) from a standard six shot .38spl revolver was the center of attention. Naturally everyone wanted to exam the "New Toy". "Bobby" carried his .45acp with a round in the chamber, full magazine, AND the hammer at "HALF COCK"! I had questioned "Bobby" concerning this mode of carry and He assured me that it is the way He had been taught in the Army ?? I was taught "Condition Three" in the Coast Guard, but after all I was just a "Shallow Water Sailor". "Bobby" took the magazine from the weapon, and then removed the cartridge from the chamber before passing it around the room with slide locked back. After the weapon was returned to Him, "Bobby" put the round back in the chamber, closed the slide, and inserted the magazine. Laying the weapon on a desk, He went to the restroom. A Deputy leaning back in his chair, attempted to put a foot on the desk, missed and knocked the side of the desk. The .45acp FIRED !
The 230gr FMJ bullet struck the brick wall and ricochet across the room coming to rest on a shelf. The .45 had also flew across the room coming to rest on a table. After the gunshot the room was completely quiet until someone asked "Is Anyone Shot?" Then suddenly the entire room was cleared, even the Dispatchers ! "Bobby" came from the restroom asking "What Happened?". The Colt was returned to the dealer and was replaced with a S&W Model 10 .38spl 4" with stag grips. Later I asked the dealer about the Colt and was told it was a burr on the sear ?

Dont lose control of your weapon.

Also, the 1911 is not perfect. Parts can and will go bad. I have seen quite a few that would fire with the safety on. They need to be inspected regularly. Check the thumb safety, grip safety and disconnector for proper function.

The half cock notch can break the hook off. Chances are the Deputy in question did not have the half cock fully engaged in the hook. The slightest jar could then drop the hammer. A series 80 probably would not have fired.

When i carried a 1911 cocked and locked, it was in a thumb break type of holster.

 

[Smoke]

I've told this story before but the first handgun I ever owned was a S&W model 915, it was designed to be carried decocked, in DA mode but I didn't know that.

Almost everyone I knew at the time was an M1911 aficionado and they all carried in condition one, generally in a level one retention holster with the strap seated between the hammer and the firing pin.

Not knowing any better I carried my 915 like that for 6 months until someone squared me away.

Now in case I haven't made myself explicitly clear here I walked around with a cocked and unlocked pistol in my holster for 6 months.

Now as UNSAFE as I now KNOW this is, I have to admit the pistol never "went off" during that time.

I have to ask my self how much less likely a modern firearm, in good working order, carried properly would be to just "go off"

 

[schgsd]

You know everyone is probably good if the restaurant simply posts a sign saying we will be happy to seat our patrons with horizontally affixed firearms on an outside wall. We'll have your table for you as soon as one clears.

 

[G.T. Smith]

Cocked?

Jimmy's #1 and 2 are spot-on.
Your story reminds me of one of my own. Back around 1978, I sold a fellow officer a beautiful nickel, square butt 36. He went and put a trigger shoe on it and carried it in one of those same shoulder holsters (Bianchi, IIRC.) Re-holstering, he blew a hole in his armpit.... and then he got mad at ME. Sheesh, I didn't set it up for suicide, HE did!

OK, I am wondering, if these two guys didn't have the hammer cocked while re-holstering, then those 36's must have some super duper light double action trigger pull. Or maybe they were pushing way hard to get it back in. Just wondering.
peace,
gordon

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

It shouldn't turn into an OC vs CC issue, but it will, always does here.

I'm with a few of the others, just because you can't see a firearm doesn't mean one is not facing you.

Right. But of course it's about open carry and the psychological effect on others.

The OP asked a question that included his own perspective. "I'm all for legal carry but am I wrong to think he should have at least worn something to conceal it better? "

Then later in the thread. - "...all he had to do was pull his t-shirt out of his pants and it wouldn't have been so obvious where the gun was positioned."

He took action to reposition himself in a way that he felt appropriately protected his family, but the above indicates he would have preferred to simply not know the muzzle was pointed at his children. This is the same psychology for open carry in general where people feel unsafe at the mere sight of a gun. They'd prefer to not know the gun is there.

 

[Smoke]

Right. But of course it's about open carry and the psychological effect on others.

The OP asked a question that included his own perspective. "I'm all for legal carry but am I wrong to think he should have at least worn something to conceal it better? "

Then later in the thread. - "...all he had to do was pull his t-shirt out of his pants and it wouldn't have been so obvious where the gun was positioned."

He took action to reposition himself in a way that he felt appropriately protected his family, but the above indicates he would have preferred to simply not know the muzzle was pointed at his children. This is the same psychology for open carry in general where people feel unsafe at the mere sight of a gun. They'd prefer to not know the gun is there.

There are a couple of things I found odd in this account (Which is not to say at all that I question whether or not it happened)

If I were truly concerned that the gun would "go off" on its own I could see moving my family out if the way but I would never have positioned myself squarely in front of the muzzle.

Also if the gun "going off" was the primary concern a cover garment (unless it was made of Kevlar) would have done nothing to alleviate the danger and would have been irrelevant.