Open Carry

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The Big D said:
Huh? Since the majority of LEO's are UNIFORMED, concealed carry as you suggest is simply a ridiculous concept; folks expect them to be armed. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, the vast majority of LEO's who work in mufti DO carry concealed. In the organization for which I worked, concealed carry at all times when non-uniformed was mandatory. That meant CONCEALED! Period. Similarly you don't see FBI Special Agents, US Secret Service Special Agents, US Marshals, and other professionals open carrying in the normal course of their duties. That is a fact. Another fact is they do deal with armed bad guys regularly...whilst carrying concealed.

That said, I daresay you would be greatly surprised by the numbers of non-uniformed LEO's who are out and about CCW.

Be safe.
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No need to roll your eyes, your own statement says that a large majority of law enforcement CC,. Based on this fact, and as others have stated, the general public doesn't like to see armed people, (yes I do know they are in uniform), combined with the observation that CC is as almost as fast as OC, then following all these arguments against OC, even uniform police should CC. Criminals wouldn't know which ones are armed, less chance of someone attacking an officer for their weapon, (they dont they have one), and the general public would feel safer.

Not so ridiculous after all.
 
Cudamank, at the risk of sounding contradictory I think CC has the greater impact on crime reduction for the general public, but OC has the greater impact for the individual. I CC 98% of the time because I believe the more people that CC the more cautious criminals will become. However the times I felt there was a chance I personally might be targeted I OCed because I believe it is a visual deterrent. That or for whatever reason I felt the need for a larger handgun than I can conveniently CC. When we walk the dog I often open carry a larger handgun because of the varmints we occasionally run across. However I live in the country were shooting vermin is expected.
 
For the sake of discussion lets assume for a minute that OC is a deterrent to an attack by a criminal. what would happen if everyone who carries were required to do so openly? Would it stop crime or just make it easier for criminals to choose their victim?
 
NKJ nut said:
For the sake of discussion lets assume for a minute that OC is a deterrent to an attack by a criminal. what would happen if everyone who carries were required to do so openly? Would it stop crime or just make it easier for criminals to choose their victim?
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Nothing will "stop" crime. If you look at stats though, during the last quarter of the 19th century violent crime was higher in cities like Boston, New York and Cincinnati than Dodge City, Denver and El Paso.
 
NKJ nut said:
For the sake of discussion lets assume for a minute that OC is a deterrent to an attack by a criminal. what would happen if everyone who carries were required to do so openly? Would it stop crime or just make it easier for criminals to choose their victim?
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Obviously, it's not a question that can be answered with any high degree of certainty because criminals have it in their nature to adapt and change their strategies just like those of us who are trying to avoid being victimized do. With that said, if a criminal delays committing his crime or moves on to seek out a softer target due to the presence of an openly carried firearm (or the presence of anything else), then the very definition of "deterrence" has been satisfied, and in either case, a crime has absolutely been prevented, even if only for a moment. That is, after all, the premise behind nearly any security measure you can think of; it is a purchase of time and the hardening of a specific target, in an attempt to prevent said target from being the subject of an attack or crime.

My best educated guess, based on the studies that have been conducted as well as the incidents that have been verified and documented, is that the people who are visibly armed would be largely left alone and the criminals would tend to target those who were not visibly armed. Of course, there are a lot of additional variables that could come into play that could certainly effect the choice made by the criminal. Just as an example, I dare say that the person pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold bars down the road is much more likely to be targeted than the homeless guy with a shopping cart full of junk, regardless of whether or not he is armed. In addition, and as was mentioned earlier in this thread, how a person carries themselves, their perceived level of awareness, and their physical stature surely plays a part in it as well.
 
ladder13 said:
So which is it...claimed or equate? And please provide a link.
If this is what you're referring to, it's a study based on stats. You like stats don't you?

No "northeast" state in the top 15 at least.:confused: I guess these folks have some agenda :rolleyes:

Most dangerous states: Crime rankings for 2010
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Well, I hate to burst your bubble but the source you gave is nothing more than a rating by the staff of a magazine.

If you use the DOJ stats, or even the FBI stats, you will find thery have not fully compiled their listing for 2010. My worst state would be CA, followed by NY and then IL. However, none of the stats include Washington DC.
 
Another problem is that most people get their information from Hollywood movies. The actual wild west was pretty tame, even with all those folks toting iron.
In his book, Frontier Violence: Another Look, author W. Eugene Hollon, provides us with these astonishing facts:

In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.

Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control "paradise" cities of the east:


DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)


Continue reading on Examiner.com Dispelling the myth of 'The Wild West' - Minneapolis gun rights | Examiner.com Dispelling the myth of 'The Wild West' - Minneapolis gun rights | Examiner.com
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oldman45 said:
My worst state would be CA, followed by NY and then IL. However, none of the stats include Washington DC.
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With all due respect Oldman, you KNOW Louisiana is the murder capital of America, right? It's been numero uno for many years running. Sorry but Nawlins is still part of the state last time I looked. Of course that could all change with the next hurricane.

Since 2010 hasn't been compiled maybe you can give us stats from 2008 or 2009 proving La is safer than ...pick one...NY, NJ, Ill...

CLEARLY, the Northeast has less crime than any other area of America...FBI stats, not some magazine as you quote.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/standard_links/regional_estimates.html

I'm sure the cheerleaders will be by shortly to claim these stats are "flawed" or "bogus" or whatever.
 
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Here is the stats on Louisiana

Louisiana Crime Rates 1960 - 2009

During 2009, the state had a population of 4,492,076 and had 530 murdered. That is less than 10 per 100,000. Agreed? Now if you look at the annual reduction, we are dropping in murder rates. Back in the 90's, we were almost double what we are now and with a smaller population.

Now here is the stats on Washington DC.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/dccrime.htm

During 2009, Washington DC had a population of 599,657 and had 141 murdered. or about 23 people per 100,000. Agreed?

So the Nation's capitol had a murder rate more than twice that of Louisiana. Yet find me a stat listing DC being compared to the other states.

Also, see if NY lists suicides and justifiable homicides in their murder rates. Louisiana lists all deaths including suicides, death by police as being a murder.
 
Though I hate to give any other forum any exposure here , especially this one , Open Carry , all ya gotta do is read some of their 'with us or against us' nonsense to know what we're dealing with.
 
cshoff said:
Reading comprehension may not be your thing. See if you can follow along. I only took issue with one part of your post.
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Let's try this again. What I am trying to tell you is that you are arguing with yourself. Don't you see that? If I agree with you and then you post taking issue with that you are simply arguing with yourself and son, that ain't the doings of a sound mind no matter how you cut it.

Ya know, there's lots of professional help around these days for those that seek it. Just sayin'.

Bob
 
Just a side note, since it was brought up, when people wanted some time of behavior to be accepted, did they hide it? No, they put it out in the open. Look at civil rights movement, look at the Gay Pride movement. Now CC vs OC is all in a class by itself but the model still holds true. Get your idea out there, on the news, and the more people see it the more they get used to it.

It just amazes me how this topic gets to be so heated, when both sides of the argument should be on the same team.
 
cudamank said:
Just a side note, since it was brought up, when people wanted some time of behavior to be accepted, did they hide it? No, they put it out in the open. Look at civil rights movement, look at the Gay Pride movement. Now CC vs OC is all in a class by itself but the model still holds true. Get your idea out there, on the news, and the more people see it the more they get used to it.

It just amazes me how this topic gets to be so heated, when both sides of the argument should be on the same team.
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It does hold true.
 
bk43 said:
Let's try this again. What I am trying to tell you is that you are arguing with yourself. Don't you see that? If I agree with you and then you post taking issue with that you are simply arguing with yourself and son, that ain't the doings of a sound mind no matter how you cut it.

Ya know, there's lots of professional help around these days for those that seek it. Just sayin'.

Bob
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Do you need me to spell it out for you, or what? I disagreed with part of your statement, therefore I voiced that disagreement. You do realize that it is quite possible for two people to agree on a concept in general, but disagree on the finer points of the concept itself, don't you?

The fact is, you said that you didn't understand why people who open carried "continued to rub their noses in it", referring to anti-gunners. I disagree with that assertion. I don't agree with the notion that they are "rubbing their noses in it".

Your condescending tone and veiled insults are childish. Grow up, re-read your post and my reply to it, and at least make an attempt to comprehend. This is 3rd Grade reading comprehension here, it shouldn't be too difficult.
 
cudamank said:
It just amazes me how this topic gets to be so heated, when both sides of the argument should be on the same team.
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When one side of the debate begins to "demand" that the other side approve, not just accept, their choice, things get heated.

I can accept that people have the choice and choose to do something, but I don't have to approve of it.
 
cudamank said:
Just a side note, since it was brought up, when people wanted some time of behavior to be accepted, did they hide it? No, they put it out in the open. Look at civil rights movement, look at the Gay Pride movement. Now CC vs OC is all in a class by itself but the model still holds true. Get your idea out there, on the news, and the more people see it the more they get used to it.

It just amazes me how this topic gets to be so heated, when both sides of the argument should be on the same team.
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You have to understand where some of these folks are coming from. They believe rights should only be exercised in a manner they approve of. They don't understand that freedom is about allowing others to do things you may not agree with, without interference.

You can bet if somebody wanted to come in and repeal the concealed carry legislation in their state, they would be throwing a fit.
 
Photoman44 said:
When one side of the debate begins to "demand" that the other side approve, not just accept, their choice, things get heated.

I can accept that people have the choice and choose to do something, but I don't have to approve of it.
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Absolutely. Nor do you have to try to undermine it. And unfortunately, that is exactly what some of the anti-OC, pro-CCW crowd have tried to do in various areas of the country.
 
cshoff said:
Your condescending tone and veiled insults are childish. Grow up, re-read your post and my reply to it, and at least make an attempt to comprehend. This is 3rd Grade reading comprehension here, it shouldn't be too difficult.
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The pot calling the kettle black, here's some more:


Originally Posted by bk43
Well let see here. You post making a statement about antis. I follow agreeing with you. Then you post arguing with me about my post where I agree with you. What the hell is that.:confused:

Son, are you sure you've got both oars in the water or do you just like to argue?

Bob
Reading comprehension may not be your thing. See if you can follow along. I only took issue with one part of your post. You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bk43
I agree which is why I wonder why the OC carry folks keep trying to rub the anti's nose in it...<snip>

To which I replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cshoff
I'm not sure how they are "rubbing their nose in it". If a person chooses to lawfully open carry, then great. If, however, another person chooses to be offended by it, then that is their problem....<snip>

Of course, you never came back with an answer, only the condescending reply you made above. So I guess it would be appropriate to ask if you can even find the lake with your boat, because my oars seem to be working just fine, thank you.
 
I see no reason anybody needs to know what I have, heck, I don't even wear jewelry. Own alot just don't flaunt it. If I was a criminal, I would take care of the most immediate threat to me and what was standing between me and my escape, so I guess if I saw somebody openly wearing a gun I wouldn't ignore them, they would just become my first priority, so the old lady with the .45 in her handbag would probably get me. Just my opion based on no facts but my desire to post a response after wasting a hour reading this post in which it seems no right answer can be agreed upon. I'm just glad not to live in Canada.
 
I'm in the "If you want to OC, fine by me but I'll keep mine concealed unless I am hunting." camp.

Some people around this OC issue are riding a pretty high horse.
 
American Freedoms

It is my opinion that the real issue is "Who am I to tell another man how and what to carry for his own personal defense.". If we as Americans want to limit our choices to what works the most average for all situations than we will all loose in the long run.
I am not going to insist you can only have one kind of car. I am not going to argue with you if you want Doberman as your only home security system. This is America and we have the freedom of choices. I may not choose what you choose. But I support your rights to have those choices.

Doc
 
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