opinion on escalation

Mexistrat

Mexistrat

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A little while back I was considering a private party sale of a gun I have. I eventually decided to keep it, but I interacted online with quite a few people first. The discussion with one person veered into the age old topic of carrying with a round chambered vs. not. I only ever carry a revolver, so thus far it has not been an issue for me, except as a matter of endless theorizing and debate. Anyway, this particular person alluded to being an LEO (made mentions of being "off-duty" vs. "on", "CC" vs. "Duty" weapon). His position was that when "off-duty" he carried without one in the chamber. Reason being that during a confrontation, racking the slide put him in a "combat state of mind" and would intimidate the other party into backing down. He also mentioned having lasers on his CC handguns, and that the intimidation factor of training a laser dot on the offending party would serve the same purpose.

I was quite shocked to be honest that someone who alluded to being a police officer had this mentality. I wrote back that in my opinion, racking the slide during a confrontation would be escalation rather than the opposite, as would putting a laser dot on someone's shirt. To me, it seems irresponsible, and tantamount to an avoidable shooting. I never heard from him again.

Is this something that LEOs are taught? I understand there are differences in the rules of engagement for cops and armed citizens, but he was talking about "off-duty" CC. I also understand there is a big difference between a Confrontation, and an Attack. This person was talking about confrontation.
 
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I have known a number of police over the years.
Some of them would occasionally drop by and shoot the breeze about all sorts of things, and I learned a lot about how they view their jobs, and even some fun tactical stuff they would talk about.

The kind of nonsense that guy told you is nonsense.
He was not a trained and experienced police officer. No way.
 
I retired after 24 years as a LEO, including nearly 7 years as a police chief. All I can tell you is that cops come in all sizes, shapes, attitudes, and mental states. Some are "gun guys", many are not. Some are laid back, relaxed folks that can be a pleasure to be around. Some are opinionated, aggressive, or otherwise difficult to be associated with. Some make it through a career while others can't hold a job for any length of time.

Attempts to generalize anything about cops are about like attempts to generalize about any other occupation, profession, or group.
 
LoboGunLeather said:
Attempts to generalize anything about cops are about like attempts to generalize about any other occupation, profession, or group.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I've known a few cops myself. Most of them were super nice. Only one I can think of was a jerk. I was just wondering about training for off-duty carry, but I suppose that varies a lot by department.
 
Muss Muggins said:
I wonder which muscle memory he defaults to under stress. Will he rack the slide on his duty weapon and drop one on the deck, or will he not rack his CCW weapon and hear a very loud "click?"
Click to expand...

Oh wow, yeah. Being a non-autoloader guy, I never even considered this. You're not likely to remember at the moment of truth if you carry different conditions at different times.
 
roscoepc said:
Holy Bovine Excrement Batman!!!!!!! :eek: I gotta get a case of beer and peruse this some more tonight!!!! :D :D :D
Click to expand...
Unfortunately this was so long ago (2001 or so) that most of the forums no longer have those posts or data. It is saved in archives so you can still find it but the original had more content
 
I captained a bullseye pistol team for a number of years and had four LEOs that shot with us. I also shot PPC with them on a regular basis. These men were and are the salt of the earth as were the vast majority of the many others I interacted with. They reminded us continuously that you will revert to your training under stress. I can't imagine carrying differently on duty and off. Too easy to come unglued under duress.
 
Mexistrat said:
A little while back I was considering a private party sale of a gun I have. I eventually decided to keep it, but I interacted online with quite a few people first. The discussion with one person veered into the age old topic of carrying with a round chambered vs. not. I only ever carry a revolver, so thus far it has not been an issue for me, except as a matter of endless theorizing and debate. Anyway, this particular person alluded to being an LEO (made mentions of being "off-duty" vs. "on", "CC" vs. "Duty" weapon). His position was that when "off-duty" he carried without one in the chamber. Reason being that during a confrontation, racking the slide put him in a "combat state of mind" and would intimidate the other party into backing down. He also mentioned having lasers on his CC handguns, and that the intimidation factor of training a laser dot on the offending party would serve the same purpose.

I was quite shocked to be honest that someone who alluded to being a police officer had this mentality. I wrote back that in my opinion, racking the slide during a confrontation would be escalation rather than the opposite, as would putting a laser dot on someone's shirt. To me, it seems irresponsible, and tantamount to an avoidable shooting. I never heard from him again.

Is this something that LEOs are taught? I understand there are differences in the rules of engagement for cops and armed citizens, but he was talking about "off-duty" CC. I also understand there is a big difference between a Confrontation, and an Attack. This person was talking about confrontation.
Click to expand...

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.
 
I carried my first 1911 not chambered. After thinking about it I chambered it, cocked and locked.

I came to the conclusion to treat every gun as if it was loaded. Safety first.

Every ccw gun is loaded. Ready to rock. It's no wait a minute while I load this. Making a split second shot could save lives as well as your own. You have milliseconds to put together what's happening and your reaction.

I don't look forward to the day something happens. But are u ready?

Ok do you carry loaded or not?

Barney Fife? Lol

Now since we're on this subject how about the family holiday gatherings do u carry?
Is it loaded?

Once I committed to ccw carry it's like my wallet it's with me loaded 23 1/2 /7 365 days a year. There is no leaving it at home or carry it unloaded. Are u committed to ccw loaded carry? There is no part-time carry. Our shift is 23 1/2 hours a day. I don't take it in the shower.

When u relax at home is it with u? Or near u?
Once you pack it's like nothing new u just automatically grab it.

Either run with the big dogs or stay on the porch?
 
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I was a cop for 30 years, retired in upper management and had to use my gun to defend myself more than once. From what was said about this character he sounds very much like a wanna-be cop. I have serious doubts that he is a real LEO just from the macho nonsense he has handing you. Everything he said goes against all the training and experience we gain over time.
 
RalphMP9FS said:
I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.
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That's what you assume but it doesn't always play out that way and I don't think you want to see what happens if it doesn't go according to plan. Even unarmed bad guys sometimes fight armed cops and win but no one can know ahead of time who will and who wont.

You rarely see them coming because bad guys wait till you're not paying attention or just don't see them. They don't announce their intentions from across the street.
 
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I suspect the person who wrote the comments is thinking about what might intimidate him (her?) with being attacked, kind of like the "loading the pump shotgun with a night break-in" story. One would think, however, that simply showing a gun would be enough to deter an attack.

This in turn reminds me of the story of how the DAO revolver came into widespread use - by accidental discharges after cocking them to show you were serious about using it.
 
In 41 years of law enforcement, I have known only one officer that did not carry a round in the chamber. He had been in the South Vietnamese Army and said they taught him to never carry a round chambered and there was no way we were going to convince him otherwise. Ironically, he carried a Sig 228 9mm DA/SA.

I had better luck convincing older guys back in the 1970s that it was okay to carry one under the hammer on a modern S&W or Colt DA revolver. We usually had to take them to the range, pull the hammer back on a fully loaded revolver, then tap the trigger with something until the hammer fell. When they saw for themselves that there was no likely way for the firing pin to strike the primer unless the trigger was held to the rear, they learned to carry all five or six chambers loaded.

Our hard headed boss in 1981 had to have an accidental discharge before he believed what we had been telling him about carrying his Combat Commander on half-cock. The gun fell out of his waist band and hit the floorboard of his private plane. The 230 gr. Hardball went into the instrument panel of his Piper Commanche. When he got back home, he did not get any gear down/locked lights. He did a low flyby and I told him they appeared to be fully extended so they were probably locked. He landed and the gear stayed down. He carried cocked and locked from then on. Even he could not see carrying with an empty chamber. Things happen too fast to be screwing around loading your gun not to mention your off hand may be busy holding the assailant off while drawing your weapon.

Just because the military does not trust their people to carry a loaded weapon (or even have a weapon most of the time) does not mean that is correct. They are more worried about ADs than they are about the enemy. Fort Hood X2 should have taught them a lesson but the recruiting office attack shows they are extremely slow learners.
 
There is such a thing as the combat mindset. If you're carrying a gun you're supposed to have it. The mindset should include your basic firearms training, all of your practiced skills, and your choice of whether you will use your weapon or not. You don't put yourself into the combat mindset by racking your slide. All you do is make it likely that you'll have an accidental discharge.

Even a cocked and locked 1911 can be drawn and pointed without immediately flicking off the safety. It takes experience but nobody should carry a 1911 unless they know what they are doing with it.

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA.

For average American gun folks, it's a VERY bad practice. Whomever told that story to the OP needs some serious instruction into lethal force and use of weapons.
 
Great discussion, and lots of good points. I absolutely don't think that drawing means you have to be commited to shooting. I do think that you should be ready though. The reason I don't carry a semi-auto other than the fact that I don't own one is that I am not trained in their use. When I do get the 1911 I've always wanted, I won't carry it until I've taken at least one tactical handgun course with it, and trained some more. I should actually train with my revolver beyond just going to the range, and this discussion has reminded me of that.

I am glad to know that the general consensus seems to be that this guy is a joker, and likely not a cop (or at least not a very smart one).
 
RalphMP9FS said:
I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.
Click to expand...

Respectfully I have to disagree with your belief... If there's a situation that warrants pulling, racking, and pointing a gun at a person, you're in a life or death situation. That's really the only time a weapon should be used in self defense anyway, Right??? A pistol is NOT used to threaten or intimidate!!!! It's used for Center Mass......
 
They reminded us continuously that you will revert to your training under stress. I can't imagine carrying differently on duty and off.

You will revert back to the level of training you have mastered.
People sell themselves short if they think they will rise to the occasion.

There is such a thing as the combat mindset. If you're carrying a gun you're supposed to have it. The mindset should include your basic firearms training, all of your practiced skills, and your choice of whether you will use your weapon or not. You don't put yourself into the combat mindset by racking your slide. All you do is make it likely that you'll have an accidental discharge.

Even a cocked and locked 1911 can be drawn and pointed without immediately flicking off the safety. It takes experience but nobody should carry a 1911 unless they know what they are doing with it.

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA.

For average American gun folks, it's a VERY bad practice. Whomever told that story to the OP needs some serious instruction into lethal force and use of weapons.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with the above statement.

As for the 1911 ? folks that carry with an empty chamber will say many things to defend what they do.
When the truth is they are just insecure about doing it.
For them I recommend: get over it or get a different side arm,
Of course they could acquire a full understanding of how a 1911 works,
at least take note the thumb safety blocks the sear AND the hammer.
The grip safety and the trigger finger add to the mix.

Rack a slide and you just told me where you are and where to shoot.
Turn on a laser and while you are trying to find me with it I can put a few in your center mass.

The best thing to do with people that give that kind of info as in the OP
is to get away from them.
They have other problems way beyond cocked and locked or one in the pipe.
If you let them they will grind you into the ground with there conveluted thinking.
 
ISCS Yoda said:
The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA .
Click to expand...

This ^was true at one time it is not true now,

When the Israeli Defense Force was originally formed back in the 40s, they were armed with whatever weapons they, as a nation, could quickly acquire. This meant that their pistols were a mish-mash of different designs. Some single action, some double action, some with safeties, and some without. Many were not drop safe. Many did not have holsters.

They needed one simple method to train a large number of people, many of them inexperienced in the use of arms, regardless of what weapon they had. The result was to carry with the chamber empty and rack on the draw. This method:

1) works regardless of the gun's design (SA, DA, safety, no safety)
2) prevents a non-drop-safe gun from going off if dropped (a real possibility when you just stick it in your waistband because you don't have a holster)
3) avoids the possibility of someone not accustomed to a safety sticking a loaded, cocked, and unlocked single action into their waistband

It is important to note that this method IS A COMPROMISE.

There is no tactical advantage to be gained from carrying this way. In fact there is a tactical disadvantage, because it requires both hands. With a modern firearm, there is no safety advantage to be gained from carrying chamber empty, either. (One possible exception to this is someone trying to shoot you with your own gun, but if you are planning your carry method based on someone stealing your concealed gun from you before you can react, perhaps you should reconsider carrying a gun.)

If you need to use a gun in self defense, you're already behind the curve because:
A) You didn't see the situation coming in time to avoid it.
B) You weren't able to find and take an escape from the situation once it started.
C) You weren't able to control or de-escalate the situation before a gun became your only option.
D) You need a gun RIGHT NOW.
E) Your gun is still in its holster (because you don't draw before you need it, right?)

Why put yourself at a further disadvantage by having that holstered gun unloaded as well?

You are not a member of the IDF. You are not mandated to carry your gun in a less-than-optimal manner. Why would you choose to handicap yourself this way? Why would you carry in a manner that may require more hands than you'll have available? That takes more time to deploy? That precludes the ability to fire from retention? That requires putting the gun out there in a place that's bad for retention?

The Israelis don't carry chamber empty because it's tacti-cool. It was a compromise that gained a bit of needed safety at the cost of tactical advantage. Today, now that they have standardized, modern pistols, many Israelis (like SWAT and Special Forces units) do carry with a loaded chamber.


Just carry with one in the pipe, already.
 
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RalphMP9FS said:
I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hearsi a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.
Click to expand...

Yeah........ No.

If I pull my weapon shots fired or not I'm going to have to justify my actions to someone. I'm going to have to articulate specifically what the bad guy did that convinced me that my life was in imminent danger.

What you are describing would be a crime in Colorado unless you could justify that your life was in imminent danger and if your life was in imminent danger you wouldn't have time to chamber a round.


RalphMP9FS said:
Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hearsi a racking semiautomatic.
Click to expand...

Unless of course the bad guy sees and hears you have a feed jam at the worstpossible moment
 
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