optics review (for the 15-22)

[KaiDoi]

Ordered a Primary Arms Gen3 on Saturday. Arrived via USPS less than 48hrs later this morning. Another ^5 to PA for fast shipping.

Fit/finish is first class. (better than my PA 4x compact)

Dot is sharp. Is advertised at 4MOA.

Total weight with riser is a little over 6oz (my Tasco and PEPR was a whopping 15oz). Since I replaced the OEM 15-22 sights with MBUS, the total weight difference with MBUS + scope w/riser is a mere 2.5 ounces more than just having the OEM sights alone. That's great if you're looking to keep weight down and accessories up

The riser is QD. It works fine I suppose but I just closed the QD handle and snugged the nut. IMO, rather not goof around with cheap QD mounts and break em. The low and high mounts are attached with 4 screws in the bottom of the scope. The low mount will work well for the Sig522.

KillFlash - It's a winner! Eliminates Sun glare great. Barely notice honeycomb is there. Not sure about glint reduction keeping my position hidden from zombie squirrels... but I trust that it will (wish me luck).

Co-witness is a little low in the glass with MBUS. Probably in the lower 1/4 of glass. It works... but I'd rather have the sights up in the glass a bit more. Though... I think the Laserlyte Kryptonyte K-15 Laser will slide right under it which is what I had in mind to begin with.

Phil,

New guy on board, here. This is so much info here to digest.

My M&P 15-22 is jail, so to speak. Cannot wait to get my hands on it.

I was hoping to get the new PA 4x compact scope. However, it may be awhile before Marshall gets them in stock.

In the meantime, I was thinking of getting the PA Micro Dot. What are the limits on this particular red dot with regard to distance/accuracy? I know there are many factors involved, but in general . . . Thanks.

-Andy

 

[janizary]

I've got a PA micro dot on an offset mount on one of my ARs. Quick acquisition, good visibility, little or no glare or starburting from the dot itself, and, with the kill-flash, makes the dot perfectly visible on a bright day (not its purpose, but the extra 'shade' provides the benefit nonetheless). Have not used it as a primary sight (again, using it offset with an 4X fixed sight), but given how good it works for what I've used it for, I'd have no issues using one as a primary on a short range carbine.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Phil,

New guy on board, here. This is so much info here to digest.

My M&P 15-22 is jail, so to speak. Cannot wait to get my hands on it.

I was hoping to get the new PA 4x compact scope. However, it may be awhile before Marshall gets them in stock.

In the meantime, I was thinking of getting the PA Micro Dot. What are the limits on this particular red dot with regard to distance/accuracy? I know there are many factors involved, but in general . . . Thanks.

-Andy

Hi Andy.

Welcome.

1x red dots are designed for quick target acquisition and two eyes open shooting. They aren't the best for pinpoint accuracy at distance. The issue red dots suffer is the area of the target the dot covers at distance. The PA Micro Dot has a 4MOA dot. That means at 100yds the dot is 4 inches on the target. 2 inches at 50yds. -- That said, I sight mine using a 6oclock sight pic. Meaning that I use the very top edge of the dot for aiming. Doing so makes for fairly precise aiming with a larger dot like a 4-5MOA.

I have a PA Compact 4x and it is awesome. The fine T reticle is a pleasure to shoot with. (I think they copied it from one of the ACOGs) I have it mounted on my Sig522. The built in mount is a bit too low for me to use on the 15-22. It's about the same height of the NcStar MarkIII scopes that a lot of folks use risers to get em up higher.


Marshall (the guy at Primary Arms) posted that he is going to spec a new GenII 4x. After that, it will be at least 6 months before availability.

--- On a side note. The PA Micro Dot riser seems a bit high to me. They say it is "proper lower 1/3 co-witness". That may be true but my MBUS are pretty low in the glass. LaRue makes a lower HK mount that fits the PA for absolute co-witness. Cost $98 versus $30 for the PA.

 

[TurboniumOxide]

Larue is pricey stuff, but you get dillo dust with every order.

I have a couple of PA micro dots (gen2 and gen3 with killflash) and an
honest to God Aimpoint H-1 ( on a larue 1oclock QD ) and I can tell you
that the PA micros are very favorably comparable to the 8 times more
expensive H-1.

The PA gen3 is on my shotgun, it takes 3" magnum round recoil and holds
tight to zero. Very impressive.

I am interested in getting the PA Compact 4x for this new 15-22 whenever
it becomes available.

Glass hunting for a new rifle is always fun, and I think that the PA 4X
compact will be comparable to my ACOG (jesus scope) on my .223 AR.

 

[KaiDoi]

Thanks for the replies, folks. I really appreciate it.

I ordered the PA Gen 3 micro dot with kill flash, this morning.

-Andy

 

[idbstyler]

Walther PS 22 Tactical Red Dot

This is a Walther PS 22 Tactical Red Dot Sight 30mm Tube 1x 5 MOA Dot. I got it from MidwayUSA for $67 shipped. I love this red dot. The dot is a little smaller than a 5 MOA. Which i don't mind because it's a little better for longer distances. It has 11 brightness settings. On a bright bright bright! sunny day you might need to use the highest setting. I had it set at 7 most of the day. 1 being not very bright and 11 being the brightest. It co-witnesses with my MBUS. Took me only 5 shots to zero in. I highly recommend this dot for anyone out there looking to spend under a $100.

 

[mikehoncho]

This is a Walther PS 22 Tactical Red Dot Sight 30mm Tube 1x 5 MOA Dot. I got it from MidwayUSA for $67 shipped. I love this red dot. The dot is a little smaller than a 5 MOA. Which i don't mind because it's a little better for longer distances. It has 11 brightness settings. On a bright bright bright! sunny day you might need to use the highest setting. I had it set at 7 most of the day. 1 being not very bright and 11 being the brightest. It co-witnesses with my MBUS. Took me only 5 shots to zero in. I highly recommend this dot for anyone out there looking to spend under a $100.

just wondering, why did you place your optic backwards in the mount? normally, you would place your mount on your receiver, cantilevered forward over the handguard. if you did it that way on purpose i'm just curious to know your reasons.

nice looking rifle.

 

[idbstyler]

It's not backwards. Thats just how the red dot is. It came all put together like that. A lot of guys are switching the mount around, I decided to just put it on like that first. Works for me.

just wondering, why did you place your optic backwards in the mount? normally, you would place your mount on your receiver, cantilevered forward over the handguard. if you did it that way on purpose i'm just curious to know your reasons.

nice looking rifle.

 

[incavulator]

I have a question that I'm hoping someone out there can help me answer.

I'm contemplating picking up a 3-9x40 NC Star Mk 3 scope for my 15-22. All of them I have seen in pictures on this site have been mounted on the top rail with the iron sights removed.

I've read that they sit too low and many have suggested adding a riser.

My question is, does anyone know if it's possible to add a see-through riser under this scope so the iron sights can still be retained and used?

If so, can anyone recommend a particular brand/model?

Thanks for the help!!!

 

[KaiDoi]

Primary Arms 2 MOA Multi-Recticle Red Dot w/ Magnifier

I received my PA multi-recticle red dot / 5x magnifier, this past Monday.

The 2moa red dot is crisp and sharp. I love the recticle with the red dot in the center. The 5x magnifier is a definite plus for these aging eyes. I normally wear trifocals. When shooting, I wear single vision safety shooting glasses. With either pair of glasses, I have no issues with see the target clearly through the magnifier.

This red dot combo also offers an excellent lower co-witness with the Magpul MBUS sights. The red dot is sits right on top of the front post. Now, I just need a PA flip to the side mount to complete this set-up. The flip to the side mount should be available in some 4 to 6 weeks according to PA.

My 2 week old PA gen 3 micro dot now sits on top of my Glock S&W .40 G23.

 

[~tc~]

My question is, does anyone know if it's possible to add a see-through riser under this scope so the iron sights can still be retained and used?

If so, can anyone recommend a particular brand/model?

Thanks for the help!!!

The easiest way would be to install a carry handle, and then get the carry-handle mount for the scope.

All that said, you don't need irons with this scope as the reticle is etched in - if the batteries fail, all you will lose is the illumination, the scope will still "function" as your sighting system.

 

[incavulator]

The easiest way would be to install a carry handle, and then get the carry-handle mount for the scope.

All that said, you don't need irons with this scope as the reticle is etched in - if the batteries fail, all you will lose is the illumination, the scope will still "function" as your sighting system.

Thanks TC....that makes lots of sense. You make a great point of which I hadn't thought of - with the reticle being etched in, there's less of a need for having back up iron sights.

I think I would still like the look of retaining the irons, and from what I've heard, these scopes are uncomfortable unless raised, so I think I will probably pursue a carry handle and carry handle scope mount.

So, the next question is where does one find a reasonably priced carry handle and scope mount that's "good enough" for the M&P 15-22 and the NC Star Mk 3 with mini red dot?

Thanks for the help.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

UTG carry handle version 6. Tapco composite carry handle mount.

 

[tcr03]

i really dont see the point to a red dot scope. either use a magnified target scope, or iron sights. the red dot just seams redundant when you still have iron sights on there.

 

[KaiDoi]

i really dont see the point to a red dot scope. either use a magnified target scope, or iron sights. the red dot just seams redundant when you still have iron sights on there.

Due to my aging eyes, I had a difficult time zeroing in my flip-up sights. The red dot affords me a much better and enjoyable shooting experience.

 

[incavulator]

UTG carry handle version 6. Tapco composite carry handle mount.

Thanks Phil!!!! I'll check those out.

i really dont see the point to a red dot scope. either use a magnified target scope, or iron sights. the red dot just seams redundant when you still have iron sights on there.

There really isn't a point. Just looking for more ornaments to hang on my Christmas tree. It's tacti-cool.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Due to my aging eyes, I had a difficult time zeroing in my flip-up sights. The red dot affords me a much better and enjoyable shooting experience.

+1 and they don't require precise eye alignment as required with irons.... and see much easier than irons in lower light conditions. For those who haven't used a red dot I suggest grabbing a cheapo at Walmart and check it out.

"Just looking for more ornaments to hang on my Christmas tree. It's tacti-cool"

^5 brother!!!

 

[KaiDoi]

Here is my new Primary Arms set-up.
- 2moa multi-recticle red dot
- 5x magnifier w/QD

I am loving this particular set-up. Personally, it adds to the total shooting experience. I have never had so much fun with a firearm, as I am having with this one.

 

[~tc~]

So, the next question is where does one find a reasonably priced carry handle and scope mount that's "good enough" for the M&P 15-22 and the NC Star Mk 3 with mini red dot?

Thanks for the help.

Just get the NC Star with the carry handle base instead of the rail base (it's cheaper too)

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Nice looking setup, KaiDoi. Looking forward to reading a full review.

 

[rlb]

BumpUpTopPlease

 

[Isthatmyshirt]

Anyone here used the Meprolight m21?.I have a chance at getting one pretty cheap.
It might be ok on my MP15-22.

 

[~tc~]

Meprolight is up there with Trijicon - very fine sights

 

[Tomac]

Here's my "first impressions" comparison of the Meprolight M21, Trijicon RX30 & Trijicon RMR. All 3 use fiber optics & tritium for reticle illumination but have different sizes, weights, FOV's & reticle/dot sizes.

Trijicon RMR pros:
Light, small, more resistant to reticle washout than either the M21 or RX30.
Trijicon RMR cons:
Small FOV through the optic makes cheekweld much more critical than w/the M21 or RX30, largest dot (7moa) of the 3 makes precision shots more difficult, dot *really* blazes & blooms in bright daylight.

Trijicon RX30 pros:
Huge FOV through the 42mm objective makes for very fast shots & more forgiving cheekweld, slightly smaller dot (6.5moa, the RX34 has a 4.5mao dot) than the RMR allows for slightly greater precision.
Trijicon RX30 cons:
Like the RMR, the dot really blazes/blooms in bright daylight, 6.5moa dot isn't much of an improvement over the RMR's 7moa dot w/regards to precision shooting.

Meprolight M21 pros:
30mm objective is faster & more forgiving of sloppy cheekweld than the RMR but perhaps not quite as fast/forgiving as the RX30, bullseye reticle is very fast to pick up (especially in lighting situations where the reticle begins to dim) and 4.5moa center dot allows for greater precision than either the RX30 or RMR, factory QD mount is very fast/easy to use, W/E adjustments are definite w/good tactile/audible clicks (although a bit coarse at 1.7moa per click) & easily adjusted w/a quarter, feels more solid than the RX30 (subjective opinion only), forward optic collector significantly helps w/reticle contrast in challanging light conditions, has the brightest tritium of the 3 and (this is important to me, YMMV) the reticle does *not* blaze or bloom in direct sunlight, instead staying nice & bright at what I consider to be the near-perfect daytime brightness level.
Meprolight M21 cons:
Not as resistant to reticle washout as I'd prefer (sorry, it sux being a perfectionist).

I tested all 3 in the large darkened basement at my work, from 20' in looking out the open door into a corridor illuminated w/flourescent light, in a darkened bathroom looking out an 18"x36" East-facing window into noontime daylight, on a covered dock looking out at various targets in noontime daylight, in my dim home looking out a North-facing tramson into late-afternoon daylight and w/taclights in my completely dark garage.

The RMR is the most resistant to reticle washout (when I asked Trijicon about this they suggested it may be due to the emitter being so much closer to the lens than w/the larger/longer RX30) w/the M21 being slightly more resistant to reticle washout overall than the RX30 (due in larger part, IMHO, to the bullseye reticle & forward-facing fiber optic collectors) but the RX30 does seem to have better topside fiber optic collectors.

Personal take:
While I like the RMR's light weight & superior resistance to reticle washout I do *not* like the small FOV or the way the too-large dot blazes in bright daylight. The RMR is my least fav of the 3.

The RX30 is similar in many ways and performance-wise to the M21 but it doesn't strike me as being quite as well developed (ie: mount, ruggedness & W/E adjustments) and it suffers from the same "blazing daylight dot" as the RMR, it's a close 2nd to the M21.

I like just about everything about the M21 except for the susceptibility to reticle washout under certain lighting conditions (the bane of all Reflex-style optics). The bullseye reticle is a joy to use, being easier/faster to use than a simple dot (YMMV) but not as "busy" as the Eotech's circle/dot reticle and it doesn't blaze in bright daylight so you still have a crisp reticle. Definitely my first choice for my particular needs.

None of these optics are "Aimpoint killers" but all 3 are quality items w/differing strengths/weaknesses. If you want a KISS optic that doesn't need batteries then definitely check out the M21.

I'll be doing range-testing this weekend, I'll post more after that.
Tomac
ETA: Even running w/just your front sight up mitigates much of the reticle washout problem as the most serious occasions I've experienced have been while using a taclight at very close range where just the front sight is all you need for COM hits.

(From the top) Trijicon RMR, Meprolight M21, Trijicon RX30:

Meprolight M21 on one of my STG-556's:

 

[jsimmons]

I have a PA MicroDot Gen2 on my S&W M&P15, and a Gen8 on my homemade AR. I was thinking I'd get another one for my 15-22, but since it's so light (the rifle, that is), the Tasco may be a viable option.