Options on a SW1911 safety??

[Dave686]

A couple of years ago the thumb safety failed on my brand new stainless SW1911. I was at the range showing my BIL how the safeties on a 1911 worked when I engaged the thumb safety, pointed it at the target and said see when "I pull the trigger it won't fire". Immediately followed by a loud BAM!! I don't count it as an AD because I hit the target.

As soon as I called S&W they sent out a prepaid UPS label and fixed the gun and returned it. When retuned there was nothing with the gun about what happened or what they fixed.

For a couple of years I have used the gun at the range, but just don't feel good about using it for a protection firearm. I just don't trust it.

So recently I emailed S&W, explained the situation, and ask if there was anything they could replace the thumb safety with if it was MIM. (I'm a Toolmaker by trade and familiar with MIM. I think its fine in non-critical components, but I feel a thumb safety is a critical component and probably should have something else.)

The reply I got back was..

dave- we only carry the safety in mim
it was not the material that failed it was the way it was fit

I'm not sure what that means and maybe I'm worrying about something I shouldn't.
I want to keep the gun and wouldn't feel right about selling it the way it is anyway.

Is there an aftermarket safety (maybe stainless) that I can order and change myself. Or would I have to send it to someone?

TIA.

 

[Dave686]

A couple of years ago the thumb safety failed on my brand new stainless SW1911. I was at the range showing my BIL how the safeties on a 1911 worked when I engaged the thumb safety, pointed it at the target and said see when "I pull the trigger it won't fire". Immediately followed by a loud BAM!! I don't count it as an AD because I hit the target.

As soon as I called S&W they sent out a prepaid UPS label and fixed the gun and returned it. When retuned there was nothing with the gun about what happened or what they fixed.

For a couple of years I have used the gun at the range, but just don't feel good about using it for a protection firearm. I just don't trust it.

So recently I emailed S&W, explained the situation, and ask if there was anything they could replace the thumb safety with if it was MIM. (I'm a Toolmaker by trade and familiar with MIM. I think its fine in non-critical components, but I feel a thumb safety is a critical component and probably should have something else.)

The reply I got back was..

dave- we only carry the safety in mim
it was not the material that failed it was the way it was fit

I'm not sure what that means and maybe I'm worrying about something I shouldn't.
I want to keep the gun and wouldn't feel right about selling it the way it is anyway.

Is there an aftermarket safety (maybe stainless) that I can order and change myself. Or would I have to send it to someone?

TIA.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by Dave686:
A couple of years ago the thumb safety failed on my brand new stainless SW1911. I was at the range showing my BIL how the safeties on a 1911 worked when I engaged the thumb safety, pointed it at the target and said see when "I pull the trigger it won't fire". Immediately followed by a loud BAM!! I don't count it as an AD because I hit the target.

As soon as I called S&W they sent out a prepaid UPS label and fixed the gun and returned it. When retuned there was nothing with the gun about what happened or what they fixed.

For a couple of years I have used the gun at the range, but just don't feel good about using it for a protection firearm. I just don't trust it.

So recently I emailed S&W, explained the situation, and ask if there was anything they could replace the thumb safety with if it was MIM. (I'm a Toolmaker by trade and familiar with MIM. I think its fine in non-critical components, but I feel a thumb safety is a critical component and probably should have something else.)

The reply I got back was..

dave- we only carry the safety in mim
it was not the material that failed it was the way it was fit

I'm not sure what that means and maybe I'm worrying about something I shouldn't.
I want to keep the gun and wouldn't feel right about selling it the way it is anyway.

Is there an aftermarket safety (maybe stainless) that I can order and change myself. Or would I have to send it to someone?

TIA.

Don't worry about it. It is not the MIM nature of the material. A 1911 thumb safety is fit by CAREFULLY filing the stud on the back of the safety so that, when in the engaged position, it fits PERFECTLY up against the sear across its entire engagement surface.

If pulling the trigger results in ANY movement when the safety is engaged, the fitter has taken off too much material in the fitting process and the safety must be discarded and a new one fitted. Literally, one or two file strokes too many and the gun is UNSAFE.

Keep in mind that the engagement surface between the hammer and sear is measured in thousandths of an inch, and if the sear moves that much as a result of a pull of the trigger, then the hammer will fall, and since the trigger is pulled, the firing pin safety is deactivated, resulting in a bang.

Unlike the Star version of the 1911, the thumb safety on Browning's design blocks movement of the sear, not the hammer. Thus, if too much material is removed from the stud on the thumb safety, then there is room for play between the sear and the safety resulting in the aforementioned surprise.

It is a good idea not to pull on the trigger unless you REALLY want to fire.

 

[Tokamak]

Originally posted by shawn mccarver:

It is a good idea not to pull on the trigger unless you REALLY want to fire.

Always a good rule. "Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are going to fire." Worth repeating.

 

[gmchenry]

Originally posted by Dave686:
I want to keep the gun and wouldn't feel right about selling it the way it is anyway.

Just go ahead and ship the pistol to me. You'll be able to sleep at night with a clear conscience.

I don't have any fears carrying my 1911SC. They're right, the part didn't fail. Sear, hammer, disconnector, and safety need to be properly fit for function. You can function test the 1911 without ammo.

 

[rbert0005]

If it works properly now, don't worry about it.

Another lesson to be learned from this........
Do not give instructions with live ammo in the gun.............

Bob

 

[Dave686]

Originally posted by shawn mccarver:
It is a good idea not to pull on the trigger unless you REALLY want to fire.

Originally posted by Tokamak:
Always a good rule. "Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are going to fire." Worth repeating.

Originally posted by gmchenry:
You can function test the 1911 without ammo.

Originally posted by rbert0005:
Another lesson to be learned from this........
Do not give instructions with live ammo in the gun.............Bob

I have snap caps for everything I own. I don't believe in dry firing anything (but that's just me) the weapon did not fail with snap caps, it failed with live ammo. Now… that may have just been a coincidence, but if it was going to fail I can't think of a better place than at a range with it pointed down range at a target. But I sure can think of a lot worse. I think if there is a lesson to be learned here its check the functionality of your weapon in the condition it will be carried.

Thanks for the info Shawn. When the weapon fired something obviously broke. The magazine did not even fit properly; it was loose and would not "lock up". I showed it to the guys working at the range and they said they had never seen that happen, but of course they weren't Gunsmiths. Do you think the safety physically broke from being improperly fitted? And I'm just wondering what that would have to do with the magazine?

 

[Northfield Gun]

I'm sure when Smith & Wesson gets a gun back with issues, especially safety issues, they go over it with a fine tooth comb, you probably have the safest Smith around now.

 

[OKFC05]

Is there an aftermarket safety (maybe stainless) that I can order and change myself. Or would I have to send it to someone?

"Drop in" safeties on 1911s are not safe. They should ALWAYS be custom fit to the gun.

What makes you think you or anyone else can fit a safety better than the repair person at S&W? Remember, at any manufacturer, the repair people are more experienced and skilled than the assembly line workers.

Chill, man. A safety is a mechanical device that can fail. Use it but never trust your life to it. By the way, anyone who never had a gun malfunction just hasn't shot enough.

 

[Dave686]

Originally posted by OKFC05:
What makes you think you or anyone else can fit a safety better than the repair person at S&W? Remember, at any manufacturer, the repair people are more experienced and skilled than the assembly line workers.

I am not a gunsmith and don't think I could. That is why I asked if there is a drop in safety; because I didn't know. (Now I see that it needs to be fitted)

If you read my post the first thing I did was to ask Smith & Wesson. They replied that they can't do anything other than the MIM that is already in it.

I see on Wilson Combats website that they sell a stainless safety. I don't have any experience with any gunsmiths locally. I wonder if I bought it and sent the gun back to S&W with it they would install it.

 

[AJG]

Originally posted by Dave686:I see on Wilson Combats website that they sell a stainless safety. I don't have any experience with any gunsmiths locally. I wonder if I bought it and sent the gun back to S&W with it they would install it.

This takes us back to the starting point. If the MIM part didn't fail and the fact that it was a MIM part had zero to do with the discharge, why do you feel the need to change it?
Also, if you're a toolmaker by trade, you may well be able to fit a new safety yourself. I recommend Kunhausen's excellent gunsmithing manuals on the 1911.

 

[magnum12pm]

Dave686 If you will not be happy with anything but a stainless safety, you can send your S&W to Wilson Combat for a fee they will be happy to fit a wilson safety for you. They will work on S&W 1911s and other quality brands of 1911, after all its your gun and your money, do what makes you comfortable with the weapon.

 

[Dave686]

Originally posted by magnum12pm:
Dave686 If you will not be happy with anything but a stainless safety, you can send your S&W to Wilson Combat for a fee they will be happy to fit a wilson safety for you. They will work on S&W 1911s and other quality brands of 1911, after all its your gun and your money, do what makes you comfortable with the weapon.

Thanks I may have to give them a call. I'm not knocking S&W they can only do with what they have in stock, and they responded immediately and without cost to me.

I have carried S&W's exclusively for over 30 years both as a citizen and a Police Officer. I have had some minor problems that I have fixed with some phone help but have never had to send a weapon back. But I have never had a catastrophic failure that rendered the weapon totally unusable before. So yes, maybe I'm worrying about something that may not happen again… but something broke and I won't feel good about this weapon until I get the MIM part replaced.

 

[OKFC05]

but something broke and I won't feel good about this weapon until I get the MIM part replaced.

A lot more than that one part in your S&W are MIM....

But if you want to get away from MIM, there is a sure cure.
Sell the S&W and buy a $2300 "hand-crafted from finest steel" Wilson Combat 1911. They do make good pistols, if you have the $$$..

 

[Fastbolt]

The safety lever (commonly called a thumb safety, and also called a safety lock by Colt) must be checked for fit and proper function. One of its two functions is to block the sear from disengaging the hammer.

It's important that the manual safety lever firmly engages the sear to effectively prevent any unwanted movement. If there is too much interference between the contact area and the sear, the safety lock will not fully engage or will work roughly when moved.

To correct the interference, the proper surface can be filed on the safety, taking care not to modify the angle or remove too much material. If either of these things occur then the safety must be discarded and a new one fit.

As you apparently discovered, an improperly fitted safety lever can be a problem. (A worn one can be, too, for that matter.)

MIM parts have shown themselves to be sufficient, when manufactured properly, for the needs of some parts in firearms. S&W revolver hammers, triggers and sears aren't exactly snapping and breaking left and right, you know ... (although I can certainly remember when their machined hammers and triggers sometimes left a lot to be desired from the fitting perspective

).

However, if you think that stainless steel parts are always going to be necessarily better ... let me tell you about a cast stainless steel safety lever that actually snapped off my NIB Colt XSE Government .45 pistol while I was using the pistol on a firing line.

All I did was use my thumb to normally depress the left side safety lever ... and it kept going downward, having broken apart, falling to the ground. Annoying. That was stainless steel, too.

QC in the manufacturing process is important.

Ditto fitting parts.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by Dave686:

Originally posted by OKFC05:
What makes you think you or anyone else can fit a safety better than the repair person at S&W? Remember, at any manufacturer, the repair people are more experienced and skilled than the assembly line workers.

I am not a gunsmith and don't think I could. That is why I asked if there is a drop in safety; because I didn't know. (Now I see that it needs to be fitted)

If you read my post the first thing I did was to ask Smith & Wesson. They replied that they can't do anything other than the MIM that is already in it.

I see on Wilson Combats website that they sell a stainless safety. I don't have any experience with any gunsmiths locally. I wonder if I bought it and sent the gun back to S&W with it they would install it.

Dave686: You do not need to. It is really not an MIM issue, and the S&W thumb safety is one of the best feeling safeties around, in my opinion. The "paddle" is not too wide, like you find on some of these thumb safeties. I have seen some that look like running boards or gas pedals. The S&W one is just right for best use and not too wide for concealed carry.

A thumb safety MUST not be fit by anyone except the factory if you do not want to void the warranty.

Plus, I agree with a previous post. When S&W goes over it, you get back a better gun because the repair people are second to none. After the trip back to the factory, you have a better gun because of the work and the check over. That gun should give you more confidence than anything else you have! (Unless of course you have another S&W that has gone back for the factory "tune up."

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by Dave686:


Thanks for the info Shawn. When the weapon fired something obviously broke. The magazine did not even fit properly; it was loose and would not "lock up". I showed it to the guys working at the range and they said they had never seen that happen, but of course they weren't Gunsmiths. Do you think the safety physically broke from being improperly fitted? And I'm just wondering what that would have to do with the magazine?

Dave686:

Sorry I did not answer this before.

It is hard to say without having seen it, but by the answer S&W gave you regarding fit, my assumption was that there was play between the face of the stud on the back of the safety and the engagement surface on the sear. I have never seen or heard of the stud on the back of the safety breaking, but I suppose anything is possible. But that would still not mean all MIM parts are bad. There are many on this forum who have heard of the old style case hardened hammers shearing off, but you have to work at it to find anyone that has had that happen with the new MIM hammer.

Regarding the magazine problem, I cannot see exactly how the safety issue would have had anything to do with the magazine catch. Did the magazines fit and lock in when you first got the pistol?

The magazine issue was not in the original thread. Did S&W actually perform some sort of repair on the magazine or the catch mechanism? What did they say about that issue? I assume you told them about it when you sent the pistol back?

Anyway, enjoy your pistol. It is a fine pistol and you should have every confidence in it. Just look at it this way: Your pistol got a free going over by S&W's repair gunsmiths that everyone else's did not get! Outstanding deal as the guys there are really good.