Original finish

[mtb1bkr]

Hello all,
I have a M1917 commercial model, I think, in nickel. I'm trying to figure out if it is original or not. Here's the trademark on the side:

Here's a picture of the grip frame with an N on it, which I know is often used to denote nickel finish from the factory.

So, what say you experts of the old guns. It doesn't have any military marks on it.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[mtb1bkr]

Hello all,
I have a M1917 commercial model, I think, in nickel. I'm trying to figure out if it is original or not. Here's the trademark on the side:

Here's a picture of the grip frame with an N on it, which I know is often used to denote nickel finish from the factory.

So, what say you experts of the old guns. It doesn't have any military marks on it.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[smith17]

Bill:
Some of the pitting way above the trademark appears to be under the current finish. I would have to believe it is not original. The surface under the stocks appears to be uber pitted, leading one to believe it had not been stored under the best of conditions. And I am not convinced that all N stamps under the grips indicates a nickel finish. I had a pre-28 which was nickeled over nickel and had a big N under the stocks. Lettered as blue.
Ed

 

[model10]

hummm that is a tuffie , it could be re nickled or desplayed as such , depending how bad it is , if for resale no , unless u tell the buyer about it , family gun let them know about it after your are gone its out of your hands hard to answwer this

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Without more photos, and even with more photos, it's always a tough judgement call. A letter from Jinks would be in order. My speculation....I would be inclined to agree with Ed's observations. Many fewer commercial models were original factory nickel, compared to the numbers of blue revolvers produced. The absence of military marking may only suggest further, that this revolver was polished/buffed before being plated, removing the martial markings and US property stamps, etc., which was typical and probably accounts for why they aren't present. I also have had 1917's with the N marking on the grip frame that were all correctly military marked and blue, and lettered as such. So the N mark is probably just an assembly or inspection mark.

 

[handejector]

The absence of military marking may only suggest further, that this revolver was polished/buffed before being plated, removing the martial markings and US property stamps, etc., which was typical and probably accounts for why they aren't present.

The gun is a commercial, NOT a military. Look at the 2nd pic- the serial number is offset for the swivel in the normal COMMERCIAL fashion.

I do not see any pitting above the logo. I see some freckling/bubbling, but no pitting.

How about some more pics???
I would like to see one of the RIGHT grip pin area, just like you show the left. Pics of the whole gun would be nice.
What kind of grips does it wear?

 

[mtb1bkr]

Lee,
Here is a pic of the right grip frame, it's not as close as the other one, but I don't think there are any marks on it. I will have to pull it back out tonight and try to get a better pic.

Here's a larger one of the left side:

and a full left side:

and the right side.

Notice how the right grip has been sanded smooth, it's a shame because the left grip is in great shape.

Here's the bottom of the grip frame:

If there are more specific pics you want let me know and I will try to get them tonight.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[handejector]

I can't tell for sure, but is that a small N to the right of the grip pin on the right side?
I have observed that most Nickel N frames from the early 20's back have the N in that location.
Right side, to the right of the pin....
Is there an N on the barrel flat, back of cyl, or under extractor?
Looks like it might be in the 188,000 range? Might be too early for magnas, but they appear to fit well.

Looks to me like you may have an original Nickel 1917. I would definitely letter it.

 

[m-1911]

Another thing that sometimes points to original nickel is that the hammer and trigger are case hardened. Many times when you see a gun with an after market nickel job, the hammer and trigger are also nickel. I agree with Lee, that there is a good chance it is nickel. As soon as Roy starts accepting letter requests, I would definitely get a letter on it. Does the right grip panel have a serial number on it?

 

[mtb1bkr]

I pulled it out of the safe today and took a better look, there are some letters around the pin on the right side but it's too pitted to tell what they are. On the barrel flat, forward of the serial number there is a small B, under the extractor there is also a small B. On the rim of the real of the cylinder the serial number is there and to the left about half an inch or one chamber it reads S24 with some sort of symbol above it that almost looks like a knights helmet. I tried to get a good pic of it but I couldn't. Also, the SN for this gun is 177740. The grips do look like they were made for the gun, but they are a 5 digit number, so they go on an older gun.

If this isn't an original nickel gun I won't be too upset, I didn't pay much for it. Anyone know when Roy might start accepting new letter requests?

Thanks,
Bill

 

[deadin]

The "S24" and the "helmet" (I think it's actually an eagles head) are usually military propery/acceptance marks.

 

[mikepriwer]

The B under the barrel, on the flat, is the indication that the gun
was originally blue.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[handejector]

Originally posted by mikepriwer:
The B under the barrel, on the flat, is the indication that the gun
was originally blue.

Later, Mike Priwer

Mike,
That is entirely correct- normally.
The nickel 1917's are a real anomaly. To date, if I recall correctly, about three have been verified.
I have handled one of them, and, again, if I recall correctly, it had the B's on it. However, it lettered as nickel.
Apparently, they were such turkeys, sitting in the vault so long, they pulled a blue gun, and nickeled it, rather than building another gun!

 

[handejector]

The "S24" and the "helmet" (I think it's actually an eagles head) are usually military propery/acceptance marks.

It is a Springfield's Inspector's mark. The S is for Springfield, and the number is the particular dude. They had the Inspectors in-house at the factory.
They are on many leftover parts. We joke about the "required" eagle head on the 2nd Model 44's cause they built them for years on leftover 1917 frames, which is why so many have butt swivels.
I have seen eagle heads on all the parts for commercial 1917's and Brazilian 1917's- barrels, cyl's, and frames. A gun usually does not have them on all the parts. They are seen in various combinations.

 

[deadin]

Well, given all the above, I guess the only sure way to know will be with a letter.

 

[opoefc]

Gentlemen, What you have here is a refinished gun which will letter as originally shipped with a nickel finish. Not unusual when you think about it, Commercial 1917s of this vintage used surplus military inspected guns and frames that had been blue to start, then put in storage for later use in filling a civilian, or any other, orders. If a distributor wanted a nickel gun, the blued gun was refinished in nickel and shipped to the distribtor and his customer as a nickel gun. It's not a renickel but it is a refinished gun. Model 53 nickel guns are the same way - all were originally blued and then refinished in nickel to fill an order for a nickel gun.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by opoefc:
Gentlemen, What you have here is a refinished gun which will letter as originally shipped with a nickel finish. Not unusual when you think about it, Commercial 1917s of this vintage used surplus military inspected guns and frames that had been blue to start, then put in storage for later use in filling a civilian, or any other, orders. If a distributor wanted a nickel gun, the blued gun was refinished in nickel and shipped to the distribtor and his customer as a nickel gun. It's not a renickel but it is a refinished gun. Model 53 nickel guns are the same way - all were originally blued and then refinished in nickel to fill an order for a nickel gun.

Makes sense to me.

 

[mtb1bkr]

opoefc,
I hope you are correct that it's not a renickel. I will have to get it lettered when Roy is a little less swamped.

Thanks to the three of you for educating me, hopefully Roy will be able to do letters again soon.

Bill

 

[mikepriwer]

"The B under the barrel, on the flat, is the indication that the gun was originally blue. "

"That is entirely correct- normally. "

Lee

I think I am entirely correct - period. Fortunately, I only said "originally blue" , and did
not say anything about how it was shipped !

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[handejector]

Originally posted by mikepriwer:
"The B under the barrel, on the flat, is the indication that the gun was originally blue. "

"That is entirely correct- normally. "

Lee

I think I am entirely correct - period. Fortunately, I only said "originally blue" , and did
not say anything about how it was shipped !

Regards, Mike Priwer

Ya got me!