-original- old school .357 Magnum

[Sevens]

A great friend recently gifted to me a few rounds of what we both believe to be REALLY old .357 Magnum ammo.

Nickel plated brass case with the head stamp that says exactly:

W. R. A. S&W .357 Magnum

…and the humdinger, a large primer, not a small primer.

Research has not been too easy as it seems my skill with web searching is limited. I have taken the time and I don’t mind spending my time reading or researching but the problem has been that all the search terms I try don’t give me historical results, most of my results are all more geared to handloading or chasing down new or used brass.

What I would like is to get a better idea of when the ammo companies made the switch to small primer as the standard for the .357 Magnum. The few results that seem hopeful have suggested that this change to small primer may have happened in 1939.

Do we have any serious cartridge collectors active here that can throw some facts and history at me, or point me in a direction that helps?

These bullets look interesting and “not of recent times” either, it almost appears to be a half-jacket design where the entirety of the gilding metal is inside the cartridge case and the outer projectile looks almost like a lead semiwadcutter, although perhaps a little more slender and maybe slightly more of a point.

Let me see if I can get a good picture.

 

[stansdds]

Please post some pics, that does sound like the first version of 357 Magnum ammo.

 

[StrawHat]

You might find information here.

CollectibleAmmunition.com – Your source for Collectible Ammunition – Your source for Collectible Ammunition

Or

THE CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR

International Ammunition Association – International Ammunition Association

International Ammunition Association Web Forum

Good luck and, please, let us know what you find!

Kevin

 

[IWK2HT]

I’ve read some that the first 357 in 1935 use 2400 powder and they use large rifle primers maybe they didn’t have small magnum primers at that time just a thought

 

[AJ]

You might find information here.

CollectibleAmmunition.com – Your source for Collectible Ammunition – Your source for Collectible Ammunition

Or

THE CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR

International Ammunition Association – International Ammunition Association

International Ammunition Association Web Forum

Good luck and, please, let us know what you find!

Kevin

Kevin's references should do it. The IAA is where I usually look first.

I’ve read some that the first 357 in 1935 use 2400 powder and they use large rifle primers maybe they didn’t have small magnum primers at that time just a thought

If really interested, I can look it up in my copy of Phillip Sharpe's handloading guide. He is on of the developers of the .357 Magnum.

 

[s&wchad]

Yes, early .357 Magnum cartridges (1935-36) used large primers. Dave Ballantine wrote an excellent article about prewar .357 ammo for the SWCA Journal and helped me verify that the full boxes of Western ammo I picked-up (small primers) were in fact pre-war.

 

[Sevens]

After looking at my own photos and zooming, I think I was mistaken about them being a half-jacket, these seem to possibly be all lead or as the box advertises in the photos above, “Lubaloy” coated.

EDIT struggling with 3rd photo, let me try in next post.

 

[Sevens]

Not sure how well it can be zoomed when hosted here but on my phone I can see the purple primer sealant pretty well suggesting that these are factory ammo?

 

[AJ]

Yes, early .357 Magnum cartridges (1935-36) used large primers. Dave Ballantine wrote an excellent article about prewar .357 ammo for the SWCA Journal and helped me verify that the full boxes of Western ammo I picked-up (small primers) were in fact pre-war.

Not sure how well it can be zoomed when hosted here but on my phone I can see the purple primer sealant pretty well suggesting that these are factory ammo?

In Sharpe's "Complete Guide To Handloading". He states "As manufactured by Winchester, the primer pocket has a diameter of .210; as manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company, the diameter of the primer pocket is .175." The Copy Right of the guide starts in 1937. Sharpe helped develop the .357 Magnum round. There are loadings from 70 grain lead to 173 grain lead bullets.

 

[Jack Flash]

If you have the box, you know that "W.R.A." is Winchester Repeating Arms.

Great pictures! You are probably finding out that your ammo is too valuable to shoot.

As a side note, I wonder if enough of us got together, we could get Starline or some other company to make a run of .357 brass with large primer pockets. Just a thought...

 

[Sevens]

Is my WRA head stamp Winchester? I see WRA and I think “Winchester Repeating Arms” but wasn’t the Winchester ammo and Winchester firearms two completely separate companies or at least divisions of a company?

And Western head stamp would be WCC, yes?

 

[Sevens]

Haha hold the phone, Jack!

All I have is three singles. The box photos came from s&wchad and the photos of the cartridges came from me. He also states that his rounds have small primers, mine have the large ones.

I will not shoot these three singles I have and I do not have a box.

 

[Jack Flash]

Oops, I misread your post.

I thought Winchester made both firearms and ammunition, but I do not know the history of the company's many permutations.

I know that Winchester used to manufacture ammunition in Alton, Ill (probably other places too). I used to live in the St. Louis area not far from Alton.

I always thought Winchester bought Western, but looking at Wikipedia, it was the other way around. Then Olin became the owner of both (?) Obviously, you can look all that up yourself if you are interested.

You see a lot of "W-W" headstamps, for Winchester-Western, in addition to the other headstamps we have discussed.

I always wanted to find a source for .357 brass with large primer pockets.

 

[colt_saa]

Spear used to manufacture half jacket soft points and hollow points in various calibers including 357, 41 and 44

They are currently discontinued but I used them for many decades and found them to be exceptionally accurate in my revolvers

Occasionally this design would have the lead core exit the firearm while the jacket remained inside the bore.

Modern projectile manufacturing prevents this from happening both by altering the shape of the jacket to wrap around the lead core, at least partially, and in many projectiles the lead core is actually bonded to the jacket to prevent separation

 

[.455_Hunter]

I would love a return of original performance spec .357 factory loads with large primers, soft swagged bullets, and the addition of a gas check to keep leading minimized.

 

[AJ]

Spear used to manufacture half jacket soft points and hollow points in various calibers including 357, 41 and 44

They are currently discontinued but I used them for many decades and found them to be exceptionally accurate in my revolvers

Occasionally this design would have the lead core exit the firearm while the jacket remained inside the bore.

Modern projectile manufacturing prevents this from happening both by altering the shape of the jacket to wrap around the lead core, at least partially, and in many projectiles the lead core is actually bonded to the jacket to prevent separation

This what you mean?

 

[Troystat]

The idea of getting Starline brass to make some 357 brass with large pistol primers is interesting, of course you then need to find some large pistol primers. In the past I shot quiet a bit of the Speer bullets that AJ showed in his photo and they shot quite nicely in my model 27 with heavy loads of W-296.

 

[Alk8944]

The original .357 Magnum ammunition was loaded with large pistol primers, not large rifle. The bullet was a Winchester modification of a bullet designed by Phillip Sharpe. Propellant was 15.3 grains/2400. This all comes from "Complete Guide to Handloading Ammunition" by Phillip B. Sharpe. (C) 1937. He included an entire chapter of the book to development of the .357 Magnum cartridge and revolver. Sharpe's book is an excellent resource and is still available the last I looked. I highly recommend it to anyone seriously interested in firearms, handloading and their history.

WRA is Winchester Repeating Arms Co. The same company manufactured and sold both firearms and ammunition. So far as primers are concerned there were no "magnum" primers at the time the .357 Magnum was developed And Winchester

"Luballoy" is nothing more than a thin Copper wash on an otherwise standard lead bullet. The idea was to reduce leading, but was generally unsuccessful in this! They are not like bullets currently made by Berry and others that have a copper plating that is heavy enough to constitute a jacket. At that time there were bullets in .38 caliber for .38-44 and .38 ACP that had a copper cap over the nose, but the bearing surface of the bullet was lead. They were not half-jacketed! This is just like the .35 S&W cartridge!

 

[DWalt]

Somewhere I have some early .38 Super with large primers. I believe they have USCCo headstamps.

 

[DWalt]

Kevin's references should do it. The IAA is where I usually look first.

The IAA Forum is the best place to ask any ammunition related question, especially regarding obscure historical information. If you can’t get an answer there, there is no answer. But reloading related questions and gun-specific questions are a no-no. They have an outstanding repository of historical ammunition references and data on their website but you must be a paid member to access it. Ditto for their bimonthly journal.