Over penetration?

[Warren Sear]

Statistically, over half of the shots fired in a typical gunfight miss their intended target completely, so when you put that in context, "over penetration" loses some of its importance. As always, be sure of what lies behind what you intend to shoot.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

No fans of heavier, hard-cast semi-wadcutters? Have a chat with a few of the old-timers.

Also, I am a convert to going for the pelvic girdle first (Some of the BGs are now wearing armor!), and working my way up... if necessary.

 

[Bobbysixkiller]

So would it be better to carry 38 plus p than 357 jhp. Just curious. I know I wouldn't want shot with either. But.....

 

[Walkingwolf]

IIRC the nine bystanders were shot with JHP. The officer responsible can be seen in surveillance video shooting while running away. He was shooting wild, and reckless. The other officer on the other hand nailed the shooter by using good tactics.

I have not heard, or seen any citations of a lot of over penetration reports out of NYC. Most injuries are from missing the threat. If it is happening it sure is not being made public.

An interesting article on the shooting of innocent bystanders. Ready, Fire, Aim: The Science Behind Police Shooting Bystanders | TIME.com

 

[rwsmith]

In my house.....

I wouldn't be too concerned about it. You are much more likely to completely miss your target then over penetrate through a target, and you should be aware of what is directly behind your target anyways. Has there ever been a case where a 9mm round went completely through a person and then did serious damage to another individual? Lets say a bullet pentrates 12" all the way through the mid-section of a person and then exits doing around 200 FPS. Is that bullet going to have enough energy left to do serious damage?

Don't get me wrong I'd prefer a hollow point, but realistically the over penetration factor is just as likely to come out in your favor as is is to be a liability. It's probably more likely that another bad guy is standing directly behind bad guy #1 than a little old lady or an innocent baby.

In my house a person behind a bad guy or a wall is likely to be someone in my family. And on the street or in a public place, you have NO idea of who could be behind your target.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

IIRC the nine bystanders were shot with JHP. The officer responsible can be seen in surveillance video shooting while running away. He was shooting wild, and reckless. The other officer on the other hand nailed the shooter by using good tactics.

I have not heard, or seen any citations of a lot of over penetration reports out of NYC. Most injuries are from missing the threat. If it is happening it sure is not being made public.

An interesting article on the shooting of innocent bystanders. Ready, Fire, Aim: The Science Behind Police Shooting Bystanders | TIME.com

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com

 

[Skeptic 9c]

For the counter argument:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k72SMtlDJgE[/ame]

Geoff
Who is using Hornady Defense Lite, because my wife can shoot all the guns well with that load, in .38 Special and 9mm Luger.

 

[Walkingwolf]

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com

Article is in 1998, the rash of innocent bystanders shootings are AFTER 1998.

In the case of the 9 bystanders the police commissioner claimed the injuries were from the "DEADLIER BULLETS" fragmenting.

 

[Arik]

Even if over penetration is complete BS hollow points still perform better than fmj

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[Walkingwolf]

For the counter argument:
Internet Firearms BS : The Over Penetration Myth - YouTube

Geoff
Who is using Hornady Defense Lite, because my wife can shoot all the guns well with that load, in .38 Special and 9mm Luger.

Honestly I find him annoying, but sometimes he is spot on. This is one of those times. Carriers who are worried about innocent bystanders that much should only carry single shot pistols. That way they would be forced to hit their threat. Missing is, and has always been the problem. But the tactical ammo high capacity ammo dump folks do not want to talk about it.

 

[reddog81]

In my house a person behind a bad guy or a wall is likely to be someone in my family. And on the street or in a public place, you have NO idea of who could be behind your target.

Is there any evidence out there of bullets penetrating through a person and then damaging someone else? Any bullet considered sufficient to incapacitate a person has the ability to over penetrate. The hollow point of a JHP can easily become plugged and fail to expand. What is the FBI standard – something like 18”. If you’re concerned about over penetration you might as well find the weakest .380 load and stick with that.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Even if over penetration is complete BS hollow points still perform better than fmj

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Yea sure, that is why hunters use hard cast lead for dangerous feral hogs. Lead has worked for over 200 years, yet numerous instances of HP not penetrating the threat.

It comes down to personal choice, and responsibility. It is fine to make those choices for your reasons. But Yankee Marshall made it clear he, like myself, have no problem with what others carry.

 

[Arik]

Not penetrating? As in bouncing off? Or under penetrating?

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[old tanker]

...all seven rounds went all the way through him, i was using full metal jacket 45 acp....

Big holes on both sides are fine by me. The more the inside of the bad guy leaks out, the faster he is likely to quit doing what made me shoot him in the first place.

I am always amused by comments about over penetration. Nobody seems to mention misses. You'd think those airballs that didn't get slowed down going through the crook would be even more worrisome to the proverbial little old lady down the street.

 

[Ranger17]

only my opinion, but when i'm at the point of loading one of my 9's for defense (whether carry or home), it will have jhp's in it. I want to be able to use "one" defensive ammo regardless of any situation I may be in, and from what i have gathered jhp will serve me best. And because I would be loaded for both home and carry, penetration would come into play for me.

I have zero problem having some mags with fmj for my range/fun time, and a couple set up for defense with the jhp's.

again just my .02

 

[Doug M.]

http://www.lightfighter(DOT)net/topic/service-caliber-handgun-duty-and-self-defense-ammo. Replace the "DOT" with a ".". In that same subforum are multiple strings about .308, .5.56, 12 gauge, and BUG (.38/.380) ammo. This is vetted information from the successor to Dr. Fackler and leading expert on terminal ballistics today.

 

[Rpg]

I use handloaded hard cast swc in both 45acp and 38 special for everything: range, sd and critter work.

I'm pretty underwhelmed by hollow point stuff. It does great in ballistic gel, but I don't shoot much ballistic gel.

I've shot good sized critters with hp as well as hard cast swc's. The hard cast swc does much better.

Offhand, I don't recall an instance in which a legit sd shooting resulted in too much penetration and hurt the innocent bystander.

I am aware of lots of instances in which misses resulted in hitting an innocent bystander . A hp wouldn't have saved the innocent guy in those cases.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Shot a nice Buck with a 12 Ga Slug.
Big entry wound, no exit wound.
When I opened him up, the chest interior looked like cherry Jello.
Didn't find the slug.
Later that day, we were skinning him out.
The flattened slug fell to the ground on the entry side.
Apparently the slug went through the chest, hit a rib on the exit side and spun back through the chest.
Then it went between ribs on the entry side and stopped just under the skin.
So was that too much penetration?

 

[robertrwalsh]

Overpenetration with 9mm military ball is a very real risk. Back when the NYPD first went to 9mm they carried military ball, against the STRONG OBJECTIONS of their own firearms people. First year they had three shoot-thrus killing one person and injuring two. The next year they went to JHP. It is a real issue.