Overcoming the "tactical" mindset

[Duckford]

I was inspired to finally register here because i found myself agreeing with this thread, virtually every point of the way. I was trained in traditional marksmanship, and I am a part of the old school, and I am finding the new gun culture to be something of a novelty. Whereas those in the old culture learned to shoot the right way, and with old single shot iron sights rifles, these new kids need their high caliber auto loading combat firearms with laser sights just to shoot at paper targets, and many never bother to learn to shoot at all. Whereas the old days where shooting was just a fun hobby, you just dressed normal and shot, every kid needs to dress up as black ops just to punch holes in paper. I learned to shoot clay pigeons, ducks, deer, squirrels, nuisance animals out on the farm, and have taken game. These kids are seriously saying stuff about "zombies", and it almost hurts to hear.

The old school learned to shoot practically, not to live up to their favorite video games. I bought an M1a as a nice auto loading deer rifle, not some street sweeper M4 I'll never use. For a self defense pistol, I choose my good old model 10, which is also a fantastic target pistol, knowing a shootout is unlikely, and probably against one assailant if I do, not a big combat auto loader with 500 rounds for the army of ninjas coming to get me.

I see rationalization for all this combat stuff all the time. The guys who are lying to you, and not themselves, know they won't be clearing their house with an Ak47 with thousands in gear bolted on, they just wanted it as a fun gun. The dangerous ones, the ones this thread is about, are the ones without self honesty, the ones who are looking for 100 terrorists to burst into Walmart, the guys hoping a bank will get robbed nearby so they can shoot it out with them, the Paul Kersey's of the world eager to get into some fight with the "bad guys". I've seen people try to explain that they use an 11 inch barrel AR15 for hunting hogs or deer, when .223 is inadequate in full barrel rifles. They buy things they don't need or can use, then invent reasons to own them.

Is carrying a gun a good idea? If we didn't think so, we wouldn't be on a forum like this. But than again, the sane ones realize that one good gun and an awareness of surroundings will be enough for what we realistically can run into. Is dressing up and arming up to take on an entire gang head on addressing a realistic scenario? Again, its the question of self honesty. If you like dressing up and having fun, you are actually safer than the ones who actually believe hundreds of dollars worth of "tactical gear" is going to save you from some unrealistic and unforeseen event.

I'm old school. If someone wants to carry five handguns, an AR, 140 rounds of ammo, taser, 50,000 lumen flashlight, a sword cane and a LAW, go for it. I think most of us pack lighter, but whatever makes you feel secure is fine with me.

"Tactical" is a term so over-used and misused for marketing that it's practically meaningless.

To make a note of where I stand, I believe the same. I have no problem with the guy waltzing down main street with an AR strapped to his back. He is his own man, he is carrying what he wants, not hurting anyone, and no matter how rediculous he looks its not my place to say so. I have no problem withe the gun, or even the clothing. It is the mentality those things tend to reflect that disturbs, and sometimes scares us.

I have no problem with people carrying body armor or long guns personally, but the public sure seems to have a problem, which becomes a problem for all gun owners. To make matters worse, many people who dress and carry over the top do so to gain negative attention on purpose. As said before here, they aren't wearing "tactical" gear discreetly, its an "in your face" look at me attitude. If a good citizen wants to carry four handguns, and can act normally, well, perhaps we can't really say anything. But almost every person who does so, does for the wrong reasons and with the wrong mentality.

Simply put, it is not the gun that is carried, or how many, but the attitude that comes with it. The retired LEO carrying a Glock in his waistband and a pocket revolver back up is not the problem, but the guy carrying a pocket auto loader openly trying to get the attention and make trouble for the police, is. If a jewelry supplier wants to carry a short shotgun under his coat because he is at high risk for robbery, and wears a IIIa vest, he is not the problem. The guy carrying a decked out super cool AR-15 on his back to rile people is.

I come from the country where this kind of stuff isn't bad. The people who dress up as cowboys have cow manure all over their boots and they smell like pregnant horse urine, because they are real cowboys. The people wearing camo are just over excited deer hunters, in a land where the first day of the season is a holiday. The freaks get chased out, and into your cities, and anyone who tires to act and dress like a freak gets a good verbal tune up from the local sheriff's office. Half the trucks you see have a 30-30 and a shotgun in the back window.

But for those people who don't live out here, I can't imagine pulling off some of that stuff. Walking down the street with a long gun for no reason? Dressing like a cosplayer for your favorite video game, but with real guns? Living a fantasy of fighting off invisible threats that borders on neurosis or even psychosis?

Sorry to go on like this, especially as a new poster, but this kind of stuff really gets my ire up. Enough of these people will make all gun owners look kooky, and give the grabbers a better chance to actually win legislation by hurting public opinion.

 

[shouldazagged]

VERY well put. I appreciate your views and your writing.

And thank God for someone who knows the difference between "discreet" and "discrete"!

 

[Don 73]

DUCKFORD said it quite well. The true meaning of "Tactical" is lost on the overly gung-ho.

Being tactical is being aware and alert to your surroundings.

Being tactical is deliberately NOT putting yourself in a place or position of danger.

Being tactical is being practiced and knowledgeable of your equipment and abilities ... AND your weaknesses and shortcomings.

Being tactical is being realistic, you're NOT going to run into a herd of zombies or terrorists, you MIGHT run into a 3 - 4 person "gang" looking for trouble, but knowing that most likely you're going to run into a single cretin looking to do harm to you or others.

But most of all, being tactical means knowing where the likely trouble spots are and AVOIDING them.

 

[feralmerril]

Many of you are going to hate me. First, I have never been a LEO nor in the military. Not because I didn't want to, I flunked more physicals trying to get in both than I can remember. What I did do though, was get to be a night watchman at lockheed for 35 years. I am sure I am in the top handful world wide for living and working in the dark. About 32 years of solid graveyard. But that AINT what my point is. When I hired in the place was a retirement home for a second career of just about every type organization of LEO and military outfit you can name. Until me I was given to understand it was almost a qualification to get the job, at least thats what my old chief that hired me let me know he was taking a chance on me. I would estimate we usualy had over 200 guards. On top of that many were old when they hired in so there was always a turnover going on. That means I worked with more of the type than I could count.
Point is of all the many friends that I worked with had faaar more experiance and a romantic background than I had. I only knew a few that packed off the job. They didnt seem to worry about it. Now yes, it was california where it was next to impossable to get a concealed permit. Yet many were retired leo. I would think that some of them should have able to legaly pack as we were located in los angeles county and some of the guys were retired los angeles city and county sheriffs dept.
Overall, these guys did not pack off the job and if a few did I didnt know ANY that ever talked about carrying two guns and a knife to gut someone if two guns wouldnt do it. Many of them did like guns and we talked a lot about collecting etc. Probley more than a few carried in their cars and kept their mouths shut about it. I did too. I went out shooting with some, traded with some, was very close friends with many etc, but was it a different day? We worked in the los angeles area, one of the most crowded areas in the united states. Well, I did spend a lot of my time in desert locations too but to read many of some posts here, I am beginning to think I lived a very sheltered life or too stupid to realize what danger is lurking and waiting for me out there. Let the games begin.

 

[Don 73]

Many of you are going to hate me... / ...Let the games begin.

Hate you why? You posted about your life experiences which for better or worse don't seem to have too many encounters with the dregs of society and let you have a better view of life than those of us who have dealt with the punks.

 

[AimHigher]

Will be interesting to see what happens to a "Citizen Commando" if/when he/she ever shoots someone and later gets sued. A jury might wonder about the mindset and predisposition to shoot someone.

Some people have worked themselves into a state of paranoia with regards to their perceived dangers of going out in public. Just imagine the optics of a private citizen being involved in a shooting outside a convenience store while armed with a 10mm, two extra mags, a boot knife and wearing BDU pants, paratrooper boots and a black SOG T-shirt.

 

[thebeamanater107]

There's two main facts that hit me. #1 is 80% of people shot by handguns survived. #2 is the #1 killer in the army when someone is shot is bleeding out.

Full metal jacket ammo punches two holes in you, and doesn't transfer much energy to the attacker. The attacker has a higher chance of dying eventually, but right now they're still coming at you same speed. A hollow point or jacketed hollow point goes into a person and stops, transferring all the energy to the target. I imagine getting hit in the chest by a metal baseball bat as a comparison. So if I shot someone, my main objective would be to push them backwards, using my bullets. My bottom line is my pistol is an item used for escape.

I don't need a tactical flashlight, combat boots, tactical pants, bayonet, or all that ****. If I put my spare magazine in my gun, that means I'm not running fast enough, or calling the cops. It also means I should have had a rifle.

If I was going out to get in a firefight and to attack, I'd be in body armor, helmet, all that tactical **** attached to me, and carrying a rifle the same as I did in the army... But this isn't Afghanistan.

I thought about my intentions and how to go about getting it done, and what will get it done was what I bought. What I have on me is a gun, extra magazine, and holster. And I'm probably wearing shorts and flip flops at any given moment.

the original point and click interface, by Smith and Wesson

 

[sac-gunslinger]

I am beginning to think I lived a very sheltered life or too stupid to realize what danger is lurking and waiting for me out there.

I would guess that you and I are about the same age, mid-60's. I grew up in the same Kalifornia that you did with a presumption of peace and tranquility domestically. The only thing we feared in those days was the Russians bombing us (one of my nieghbors, as a kid, did have a bomb shelter that most everybody laughed at). The world changed over the years as our state became a cesspool of ill conceived laws and people expecting to be supported. The dangers we notice today were not there when we were younger.

"This is not your father's California!"

 

[feralmerril]

About 72 and a half.

 

[The Big D]

Said it before.

As I have noted herein on multiple occasions, I was a LEO for 30.5 years, carried in every state of the union, and was on the clock in 46 of those states. And I carry 99% of the time...but never on the golf course, whilst working out, or whilst engaged in similar pursuits.

I have lived all my life in URBAN locales and worked in some of the "worst" areas of the cities in which I resided whilst on the job.

Have never ever been armed with more than one (1!) handgun. And due to logistical reasons have sometimes been unarmed for periods of time. I do/did the same things unarmed as armed.

Don't own anything tactical or in camo save a vest carrier or two. For a fact, the vast majority of people never knew I was a LEO when in mufti and no one (except a few close friends) realizes I am toting a gun just about all the time.

Suspect I have used a gun more times than most Forum members and that includes off-duty incidents whilst still employed and a few incidents in my retirement days.

IMHO, life is too much fun to worry constantly about zombies, wildings, attacks by multiple assailants, gun malfunctions, and associated "what if's."

It has been my experience that if an incident is survivable I will live to talk about it. If not? Well, it was a great ride.

Be safe.

 

[thebeamanater107]

DUCKFORD

But most of all, being tactical means knowing where the likely trouble spots are and AVOIDING them.

I agree with you about 90%, but my idea is worded very different.

I figure tactical came from the military, where they find and attack the enemy. Civilians don't do that, therefore the military meaning of tactical is nothing more than cool.

The word tactical is the adjective version on the noun, tactic. To me, the word simply means you have a plan and follow it.

I don't plan on going to dangerous places, and I don't. If danger finds me, I'm armed.

That's it, my 2 cents is done.

the original point and click interface, by Smith and Wesson

 

[Smoke]

What I did do though, was get to be a night watchman at lockheed for 35 years. I am sure I am in the top handful world wide for living and working in the dark. About 32 years of solid graveyard.

Based on personal experience, if you're going to do security graves is about the best shift. Not as many people to deal with.

The only bad thing about graves was having to deal with all the day shift clent employees coming to work

 

[feralmerril]

If I thought about it I belive I could come up with quite a few storys of weirdos I had to handle over the years on graveyard. There was a number of fools through the years that were drew to check lockheed out I think due to all those tv shows about spy planes, area 51, space ships, black helicopters etc. Lockheed is the biggest name in all those storys and I cant count the nutcases that came around. Anytime you have from a low of about 6,000 to a high of 20,000 people working that you deal with you are going to deal with many different types. We even had a number of murders, 35 years is a looooong time. I was there longer than I was old if you used 40 hours a week as a baseline. I know I all around averaged 65 hours a week. I went many times 3 months without a day off! You will never hear all that happens at a huge company like that if there is any way at all they can keep it out of the news.

 

[Duckford]

Everything tactical changes on the situation.

Someone in a new car and a shirt and tie drives into your yard, looks like a book salesman. Do grab your M4 and greet him head on, or do you simply holster your concealed pistol in the very off chance it is a clever criminal using respectability as a ruse? This is a tactical decision.

Say you see someone you know drive into your yard, and its a very psychologically unstable gentleman who's been to prison several times for violent crimes that you know of. Do you holster your conceal pistol, or do you bear a shotgun when confronting a known violent criminal in hopes that openly bearing arms will lessen the chance of a violent confrontation, and will deter him from attacking you? This is a tactical decision.

Wither you pull on your combat boots to walk to Target or your tennis shoes is not a tactical decision.

Being the kind of person who thinks that even just being a civilian, you wish to carry a handgun for personal protection, than thinking that a backup handgun might be a wise choice, than carrying a vest in the unlikely event of a firefight with an armed criminal for protection, you may seem extreme but you actually show real concern and logic behind your decisions. You want to be prepared, and if you are going to take steps, you might as well take all of them. You are assessing real threats, and take things very seriously.

Remember that guy who got into a firefight with a carjacker in front of his family and got sent into the intensive care unit in critical condition? Why, that could be me, perhaps if I'm going to carry a gun, I should carry a vest as the next logical choice. This is someone assessing risks and values, making choices and putting forethought into situations that could realistically happen and developing tactics and means to survive them. This is tactical.

Feeling the need to dress up in expensive tactical gear and carry 100 pounds of extra gear for no reason, for situations you almost have no chance to encounter, just because they look cool, does not make you a reasonable person. If you really think that your first two handguns will fail and you need a third or fourth, well, I have bad news for you. Do you think you need that 16th magazine, for the endless firefight with the Communist Nazi Columbian drug lords you will run into? Do you really need that blow torch, magnesium strips, titanium claw hammer, infared goggles, kitchen sink, and tactical baseball bat duct taped to your chest? Do you think you need that Bennelli to breach the dressing room door at K-Mart to stop the crazed cocaine huffing Zimbabwian dictator holed up inside? I think not.

That is the example of someone with no tactics. There is no real assessment of surroudnings, situations, threats, or possibilities. Just carrying stuff for the sake of carrying things.

I get a big kick out of the post about Vietnam and the Army sending more gear than what was needed. They make enough tactical gear and tools than you will ever need, you don't need to carry them all.

In the end, a friendly NORP makes tactics, just like law enforcement. But not as extreme. In truth, the average person going for a bread run makes tactical and weapon decisions, just the same as a SWAT team does for its mission. The difference is, the SWAT team is dealing with known threats and equips accordingly, taking tools and weapons to meet the situation. Citizen Sam going for a bread run, he too takes tools and weapons, but upon assessing his situation he should realize he doesn't need Class IV body armor, an automatic rifle, flash bangs, ect, against unknown and unlikely threats.

If you are truly "tactical" you should be able to tell me the reason why you carry every piece of equipment and weapon you do. If you can't, why are you carrying it? Without purpose, it goes from tactical to tacky. Real pro's and soldiers spend their time paring down their gear, not trying to add more useless junk to it.

Again, sorry if tl;dr.

 

[Grayfox]

I'm just a normal guy. I've never been a LEO. I was in the Army as a young man, but never saw combat. I've never been in a firefight and sure as hell never want to.
The stuff I carry all has a practical reason.
I generally carry a fairly decent sized firearm. The two I carry most often are a Colt Commander .45acp or a 3" Model 13 loaded with .38+Ps. Why? because I can hit what I aim at with them.
I sorta envey you guys who carry a J-frame. Me, I never could hit squat with one. They're just too small for my hands. So I carry what works for me.
I always carry two reloads. No particular reason, just my habit. Besides a double 1911 mag pouch doesn't take up much more room than a single or weigh much more, so why not? With the revolver its two speed strips. Speed loaders are nice, but bulky. A pair of speed strips in my pocket are flat and almost un-noticable.
I never carry a back up weapon. Never felt a need to.
I always have a knife in my pocket. Mine is a simple folder with a 2 1/2" blade. Its a tool, nothing more. God help me if I was to ever have to use a knife as a weapon. I'd probably be more dangerous to myself than the bad guy.
Last year I had a little money left over in my tool allowance. So I walked up on the tool truck with nothing particular in mind. Just on a whim I bought a Streamlight Micro flashlight. This thing really surprised me. Fits in my pocket comfortably and I find I use it much more than I would have ever guessed I would. So now its part of my daily carry stuff.
Add keys and wallet and that's pretty much my entire "tactical" rig. Not much to it, but every item has a practical use.

As far as clothing, I'm a simple jeans and flannel shirt guy. Never saw much need to advertise that I was carrying. Besides, the whole "tactical" look doesn't work well on a gray haired old man.
Now I do own a pair of "Tactical" black pants. Military style with cargo pockets and all the goodies. I bought them a couple of years ago as part of my Halloween costume. Haven't had 'em on since.

I have discoverd that when I'm at the range and one of these tacti-cool guys shows up, I tend to keep a close eye on them. Most don't shoot very well and their gun handling skills leave a lot bo be desired. But I do appreciate that fact that they wear this stuff. Nothing like a big black warning flag to let you know who the idiots are.

 

[Smoke]

Duckford you are new and unique to the planet! I like the way you think!

A lot of new shooters get caught up in the "equipment/arms race" by either reading some of the various gun rags out there, youtube, and "gun TV". A year or two ago it was pressure sales of ARs and Glocks, "tactical reloads"(?!) and the infamous "what if" scenarios. And of course "Bug out scenarios". RIGHT!

As to the explaining why I carry what I carry, ok! First right now its the 64-2 snub, it answers my need for taking the dog out or puttering around the yard, totally reliable with whatever's in it, and even though its a snub it can reach out if need be. Two speed loaders, Safariland. I like the fact that you just shove the unit in till it clicks and drops its cargo into the cylinder, doesn't require the twist of the HKS (not that I don't use those).

Why two? Might have a loader break or fail to release, dud rounds, and I don't believe in the "tactical reload"! Plus its only 18 rounds, most if the popular semi-autos of today carry that in one magazine.

Flashlight: Streamlight ProTac HL, 600 lumens on full, strobe(never used it!) and low power (something like 80 lumens). Ever been in a store when the power goes out? Or trying to find a screw on the basement floor? Yeah that's why I carry a light, plus at 600 lumens it does tend to make a person wince!

Pocket folder: Gerber E-Z-OUT. I can fight with it if need be, but mostly it opens the mail, Doritos, and prunes the leafy stuff and can take care of a hang nail.

Multi-tool: Victorinox Swiss Tool, just a handy tool for when your tool box is in the vehicle. And handy on the range for adjusting sights, fighting screws, cutting small branches.
Tactical? Probably not. Practical? Most assuredly! And there in is the point, be practical about your carry gear, carry what you need.

And yeah, the cel is there too, gotta stay in touch with you all here on the forum.
Dale

Hope you don't mind me throwing in some spaces I kept lossing my place

 

[Smoke]

Semi long story but when I was stationed in Germany I had to go to an M16 Qual range off post, I think in Vilsec or Wildflicken. Anyway it was supposed to be a one day range and things kept getting added on until at some point the chain of command decided to just bring down the entire battalion and do all small arms quals at once. What started out as a one day range became a 5 day FTX and those of us who went down the first day just had to suck it up.

I learned my lesson well, from that day forward I made it a rule never to leave main post without a change of socks and underwear, rain coat, my field jacket, long johns, a sleeping bag and an extra pack of smokes.

I no longer smoke but I work outside and every day of the year I bring a small pack to work with me that has in it a change of socks and underwear, rain coat, a fleece, long johns, a stocking cap and gloves. And, because I live in Colorado I keep the same sleeping bag in my trunk year round.

As for what I carry daily and why, certain items are required by my employer so I have no choice but for myself I carry a Gerber multitool because part of my job is rehanging signs on the fence at work. A buck 110 folder for general cutting (usually oranges) and a Gerber Task light for those times the power goes out or I'm asked to stay over until dark. I also always have my phone and my wallet and a handkerchief.

And of course I never walk out the door without a pistol and two reloads

 

[shouldazagged]

I no longer smoke but I work outside and every day of the year I bring a small pack to work with me that has in it a change of socks and underwear, rain coat, a fleece, long johns, a stocking cap and gloves. And, because I live in Colorado I keep the same sleeping bag in my trunk year round.

I'm retired and not in great health, so I don't get away nearly as much as I used to--mainly just short trips to the grocery or drugstore, and a few meetings a week. But in addition to a musette bag with jumper cables, flares, etc., a fire extinguisher, a multitool and a gas can, I have a rolled GI OD wool blanket and another musette bag with a large knife capable of light chopping, fire starters, waterproof match safe, a length of rope, rain poncho, wool watch cap and gloves, polypropylene underwear, a few first aid items, and other odds and ends of emergency gear. With winter coming on I'll add a bag of cat litter I figure it couldn't hurt to have this stuff in case of getting stranded in a snowstorm or while out on a fishing trip.

I don't think of it as bug-out gear in case of thermonuclear and/or "zombie" catastrophe, and I damn sure don't call it "tactical", but consider it simple prudence.

 

[Doug M.]

Duckford is displaying some good thoughts.

"Strategy": a careful plan or method for achieving a particular goal usually over a long period of time. "Tactics" are the means by which you implement that strategy. Circumstances dictate tactics.

I have a multi-layered approach to safety at home. Fencing, lights, no trespass signs, protective dogs. Anyone approaching the house is a criminal - I know that because they have ignored the signs. I do not like people and do not want someone feeling comfortable with approaching me or my house. I generally ignore them as they can't get past the fence easily; otherwise I call LE. Before the fence went in, if someone came to the door, I did not answer it, but merely offended them as I made it clear they were not welcome.

I don't assume jack about anyone because of their attire or age. I know of two officers in my small circle of associates, one a friend, who (fatally) shot teens who appeared to present a lethal threat. I've been close. An officer was killed in Oregon a few days ago by an 88 YO who was burning his house down around himself.

I also don't assume that any place is safe. No place is "safe". All places are unknown, until and unless they are revealed to be unsafe. Carrying only when going some place "unsafe" is dumb. First because you can't predict it well enough, and second because going some place you believe to be unsafe if you are not duty bound to do so (think LE) is really dumb. If you are duty bound to do so and aren't taking rifles and backup officers, you are well beyond really dumb to the point of needing a guardian.

I don't wear headphones or other such stuff unless in my house and trying to protect my wife from my choice of workout music. In the gym? Appalling. I have seen the complete lack of situational awareness that infests gyms and other places as a result of wearing earbuds. If I had kids and caught them wearing earbuds, I'd take them away. I live in a college town. The %age of the population that is completely unaware is amazing. Because of my larger dog, I need to know what's going on within about 50 yards all the time. The vast majority of people we see don't even notice us - and I'm good sized, and Bozo is a big dog with a shiny muzzle on his black face.

Dressing like a mall ninja is not tactical. It might be Freudian compensation or something.

 

[snubbyfan]

You guys got me thinkin'. I took the stuff I bring with me and got a picture of it. It's not really all that much. Just stuff I can carry with me without being over burdened. Sometimes, I pocket carry and other times it's owb. Since I haven't had a haircut since '93 I always make sure to bring a comb and an extra hair tie. I don't have a cell phone because they don't work here.