+P 125gr 38 vs. 125gr JHP 357 Magnum?

[RedBerens]

I understand that the 125gr JHP magnum is hard on K frames, but have read that it is one of the best rounds to use for self defense. I'd like to sight my 2 1/2" model 19-5 in for the magnum round, and was wondering if I can 'cheat' and sight in and practice with a +P 125gr 38 special instead, and only fire a few of the magnums to make sure it's sighted in?

I'm still new enough at this to be unsure if the additional 400+ fps will radically change bullet impact between the two loads?

Also, am I on the wrong track - should I be looking at a different / better round for the 19-5? Is the 125gr magnum just too much for this gun?

 

[crofoot629]

I understand that the 125gr JHP magnum is hard on K frames, but have read that it is one of the best rounds to use for self defense. I'd like to sight my 2 1/2" model 19-5 in for the magnum round, and was wondering if I can 'cheat' and sight in and practice with a +P 125gr 38 special instead, and only fire a few of the magnums to make sure it's sighted in?

I'm still new enough at this to be unsure if the additional 400+ fps will radically change bullet impact between the two loads?

Also, am I on the wrong track - should I be looking at a different / better round for the 19-5? Is the 125gr magnum just too much for this gun?

Sounds good to me, though myself I'd reload .357 cases to some soft shooting load that hits close enough to my chosen 1450 fps 125 grn load.

You just need to try your idea to see where the point of impact is in relationship to the point of aim with your different loads.

The .357 with 1450fps 125 grain jhp's is truly a relatively effective handgun round. I'd feel well armed with it. Are you aware many of the manufactures 125 grn jhp offerings are reduced loads and nowhere near 1450 fps?

FWIW I've never shot .357 mag loads very well. I'm better off with a bigger slower round like 45 acp's, 45 Colt, or 44 Specials.

Emory

 

[OKFC05]

Not all 125gr .357 magnums are the same.
However, for the full-house max power loads, they can be a bit much in a 2" bbl.
If you want something in between max and the .38, you might try the Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel .357 magnum. I like them in a model 65.

 

[WR Moore]

A little history here. The Model 19 was developed in an era when almost all practice/qualification was done with .38s. Actually, in a great many cases, with wadcutter target ammo. This practice came to a screeching halt after several incidents where cops who trained with bunny fart ammo and carried magnums got themselves killed.

The combination of 125 gr JHP magnum ammo and K frames was why the L frame was developed. While the magnum ammo is probably the closest thing ever produced to the hammer of Thor for self defense purposes, it is abusive to the user (talk louder if you're on my right side) and the weapon and difficult to learn to control-it requires much initial and sustainment practice. The truly outstanding performance of the ammunition is meaningless if you can't put the round in a vital area.

Now with some background, yes you can practice with the .38s and carry the magnums with some occasional use of the big stuff. However, it's been demonstrated that this probably isn't the brightest idea in the world. Add in the fact that spare barrels for model 19's aren't being produced and the idea gets less appealing.

Probably you're best choice in this situation is a +P .38 load using a 158 gr lead hollowpoint bullet. The ammo performance is there and you can practice with what you carry enough to be able to put the bullet where it ought to be.

 

[flop-shank]

I think you'll be fine if you give the magnums very limited use Red. Remington 125 gr. .357 JHPs and .38+Ps use the same bullet, and I think the same thing is true with Federal .357s. Those should shoot pretty close, but I could be wrong.

Myself, I'd just circumvent the whole 125 gr. issue and run 158s, 145 gr. Silvertips, or try (actually what I feel is a very good, if not the best bet) Corbon 140 gr. JHPs. If you reload, you can cook up a practice load that shoots close enough to get you by. You'll just have to find a bullet of appropriate weight.

Another option might be to see how Speer 135 gr. SB .357s shoot in conjunction with 130 gr. fmj. There are no shortage of possibilities with the .357.

 

[roaddog28]

I understand that the 125gr JHP magnum is hard on K frames, but have read that it is one of the best rounds to use for self defense. I'd like to sight my 2 1/2" model 19-5 in for the magnum round, and was wondering if I can 'cheat' and sight in and practice with a +P 125gr 38 special instead, and only fire a few of the magnums to make sure it's sighted in?

I'm still new enough at this to be unsure if the additional 400+ fps will radically change bullet impact between the two loads?

Also, am I on the wrong track - should I be looking at a different / better round for the 19-5? Is the 125gr magnum just too much for this gun?

You might want to consider some of the less recoil 357 rounds that still have good stopping power. Remingtons Golden Saber 125G JHP have lower recoil and is rated 1220 FPS. The is a lot more powerful than a +P round. Another good round is the Winchester Silvertip 145G JHP. It is rated at 1290 fps. Speer makes a good 357 round for short barrel revolvers. It called Speer gold dot short barrel 125G JHP. Now it is rated lower than the above rounds at 990 fps. I would stay away from the full house 125G JHP from Federal, Remington and Winchester. They will be harder on a model 19/66. The above suggestions will be less harder on your gun. Actually, the 19/66 was designed for 158G ammo. But the kick from a 2 1/2 barrel will be severe. I have a 66-4 4 inch barrel. I will never shoot the full house ammo. I use the above suggestions depending on availiabity.

 

[Erich]

Remingtons Golden Saber 125G JHP have lower recoil and is rated 1220 FPS.

And they'll turn your Magnum revolver into a six-shot, more recoil-y 9mm. But there's certainly nothing wrong with the ballistics . . . just that I'd use a smaller, easier-to-shoot gun with more firepower to get them.

 

[roaddog28]

I use this as a rule of thumb when buying ammo for my K-frame magnum. Stay with rounds in the 1100 to 1300 FPS range. Stay away from rounds in the 1400 to 1500 FPS range. If you use that theory, you should be fine. You have the best all around revolver. I love mine!

 

[RedBerens]

And they'll turn your Magnum revolver into a six-shot, more recoil-y 9mm. But there's certainly nothing wrong with the ballistics . . . just that I'd use a smaller, easier-to-shoot gun with more firepower to get them.

You know, I'd never really thought of it in those terms, but you're right. Erich, what do you like in your little .357's?

 

[GatorFarmer]

Carry gun = expendable. If you want the 125 gr .357 mag ballistics, then use them. If you can stand the recoil, you'll want the practice with your carry ammo. If the gun breaks or wears out, then so be it. Scavenge what parts you can sell and get a new gun if/when it happens. No different than any other tool - use it hard, it'll break sooner.

 

[Erich]

Hi Red,

I carry 145-gr STHPs for people (a bit over 1200 fps from a 4"/1175 from a 3") and warm 180-grain hardcast handloads (just under 1300 fps from a 4"/1230 from a 3" - Blue Dot, believe it or not) when hiking in Bear Canyon. For fun I shoot mostly 158-gr cast bullets at between 1200 and 1400 fps (depending on the loading - Power Pistol for the former and Lil' Gun for the latter) from a 4".

I drank the 125-gr/1400 fps Kool Aid like everyone else in the mid-/late-'80s and don't really see anything wrong with the load (have never personally messed up the forcing cone of a K-frame with them - I have a knowlegeable friend who speculates that poor cleaning of the K-frame forcing cone was behind this problem with the hot 125-grainers) - it's just a personal preference thing. I just think that a big strength of the .357 Magnum is that it's able to develop plenty of oomph behind a meatier bullet. I go for the middleweight hollowpoint for "social work" carry because I get worried about the big boys just punching through and hurting something I didn't want to shoot, and because I perceive them to be less flashy and faster on the follow-ups than the hot 125-grainers.

The medium-velocity 125-grainers would be just fine. I trust the 4" .357s that produce these ballistics (125-gr/1200 fps) - just as I rely on the same ballistics when produced by my tiny 10-shot CZ RAMI (with 16-round back-up mags).

By the way, going back to your original post and considering that you're looking to shoot these out of a 2.5" K-frame, I'd guesstimate that your gun would develop between 1130 and 1150 fps with the 145-gr .357 Magnum STHPs.

 

[SWAT Lt.]

I, too, am a former 125gr full magnum Kool-Aid drinker. Depending on your needs, skill level, and availability I would look at the following for the 2.5 inch .357: 145 Silvertip, 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel, 125 Cor-Bon DPX, and maybe the 125 Golden Saber. Or, if you didn't want of need a magnum round you could go with one of the better 38 +P rounds (135 Gold Dot, 110 DPX, or maybe the 130 PDX-1).

It's interesting to see the number of folks that think the .357 is a "manstopper" but a 9mm is inadeuqate. Yet, the 9mm has virtually the same diameter and weight bullet, which is often better designed, at the same velocity. Plus you get a bunch of them, they're easier to shoot, and the gun is quicker to reload.

 

[aterry33]

+1 on the Speer GD 135+P short barrels.

Never understood the need for magnums for anyone other than state troopers and other LEOs who needed to shoot through cars. Tremendous flash, can blind at night, deafening sound, harder to control, hard on guns, and can overpenetrate.

Why not go with 158GR+P LSWC HP in 38? It will put a bad guy down without a lot of the negatives associated with the magnum rounds. I'm definitely not an expert, but that's my personal opinion...

 

[Erich]

Yup, SWAT LT. And, ATerry, I can't argue against your stand, either. Very sensible, both of you.

I've seen a decent number of shooting cases with the 9x19, the .38s, and the .357, and they all seem to work the same in people. Of course, so does pretty much everything else from a handgun that hits the vitals. Actually getting to the vitals is sometimes an issue, as is being able to hit the vitals - but either of these rounds can do it. I'm of the opinion that more rounds might not be a bad thing - and more controllable rounds (assuming that they're adequate, and the 9x19 with standard rounds certainly is) is definitely a good thing.

I like the .357 Magnum as being an amazingly versatile gun. I have no worries about using it on anything that walks in New Mexico - but I load it differently depending on what I'm concerned about being need to stop. If I could only keep one gun, though, it would probably be a .357 Magnum.

Back to Red, though: there are sure a lot of rounds you might consider carrying. There is certainly nothing wrong with carrying a 1200-fps/125-gr .357 Magnum loading - despite any snotty innuendos I may have injected supra. I certainly don't carry my .357 Magnums with the most powerful rounds they can handle when I load them for defensive use against people. Were it me, I don't think I'd carry 125-grain mid-velocity loads, but there's certainly nothing wrong with them for such use.

 

[flop-shank]

One thing I will add to the thoughts above; I carry full power 125 gr. Remington SJHPs in my steel .357 snubs. If anyone wants to be able to use them effectively, they had better pay their dues in practice, otherwise you're wasting your time. They're a handful.

 

[aterry33]

flop-shank, what cracks me up is when I see some guy walk into the local gunshop, purchase a 12 oz titanium J-Frame, put maybe a box of practice through it, and then he's off carrying hot 357 loads. Scary...

 

[flop-shank]

I couldn't agree more , Aaron, especially if he hasn't shot the full power .357s from it. They beat my hand senseless. With my 360 PD Speer SB .357s are as powerful as I find useable.

 

[Erich]

This thread got me thinking about how RA9TA 127-gr +P+ 9mm rounds do 1400 fps from my Sigma - I'm carrying it tomorrow . . . with seventeen of them in the gun and another sixteen in reserve!

 

[RedBerens]

Sometimes I wonder if Iwouldn't be better off just going with Buffalo Bore's +P 158 LSWCHP or their 150gr HCWC. I just noticed that the 158 load outdoes the Speer short barrled magnum load in velocity and energy.

Part of me thinks it's a waste to not carry magnums in a gun made for them, but the Federal & Remington 158gr magnum JHP's I've fired border on uncontrollable. But once you go down to a +P, you might as well be carrying the more powerful 9mm. Decisions, decisions....

 

[flop-shank]

Red, try Speer 135 gr. Short Barrel .357s. They might be exactly what you're looking for.

.38+P still makes perfect sense if you prefer revolvers over autos. In my case, I'm willing to give up capacity for the system I prefer.