Has anyone tried +p in a 9mm Shield? If so, how did it perform? Thanks much..
+P 9mm in a M&P Shield?
- Thread starter jcbang
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First of all, the Shield is practically unobtainable.....S&W will have a hard time meeting demand. It is not legal for sale in Maryland until the middle of July.
Why shoot +P in a small frame gun....sure it will be fine, but continued use )if you are a frequent shooter) will surely have negative effects on the gun. If you wanted more power, you should have bought a .40. That being said, I am certain that the rounds will shoot fine. Be certain to try everything you can buy, in your particular firearm, to see what groups the best (use a rest of some kind). Then, use that as a preferred load (unless it is a handload or one that is unsuited for defense) for personal protection.
Terry
Why shoot +P in a small frame gun....sure it will be fine, but continued use )if you are a frequent shooter) will surely have negative effects on the gun. If you wanted more power, you should have bought a .40. That being said, I am certain that the rounds will shoot fine. Be certain to try everything you can buy, in your particular firearm, to see what groups the best (use a rest of some kind). Then, use that as a preferred load (unless it is a handload or one that is unsuited for defense) for personal protection.
Terry
OP
I am new to shooting and am exploring all the ammo options out there. I did not want to jump into a .40 right off the bat especially in a small CCW, hence the 9mm. I also have a 686 357 magnum in a 4 inch, a real joy to shoot. I have been practicing at the range with these and am ready to buy some defensive loads for range use and stocking. Thinking of going with hydra shoks for both of the guns. Thanks for your input...
Speer 124 grain +P
The +P will give you some of that lost velocity from the short barrel back. This particular load is working very well for the NYPD. Mas Ayoob highly recommends it. Post your question over on Glock talk in the GATE self defense forum. Mas will help you out.
The +P will give you some of that lost velocity from the short barrel back. This particular load is working very well for the NYPD. Mas Ayoob highly recommends it. Post your question over on Glock talk in the GATE self defense forum. Mas will help you out.
Martimus
US Veteran
I've been firing 115gr Speer Lawman in my Shield. It's not quite +P but certainly hotter than a standard load... and my Shield handles it just fine!
Load your Shield with 147s as they lose less velocity from the short barrel plus they hit harder.
A fella clocked the 115s, 124s, 124 +Ps and 147s out of a 4" barrel and recorded 'em. Then he did the same with the 3" barrel and wrote the difference in percentage of loses. The 147s came out with less percentage of loses than the others.
Also the +P didn't really add the velocity too much to the short barrel. Most of the propellant is wasted after the bullet left the barrel but the muzzle blast was cool though.
EDIT: Test the 147s in your gun first before carry.
A fella clocked the 115s, 124s, 124 +Ps and 147s out of a 4" barrel and recorded 'em. Then he did the same with the 3" barrel and wrote the difference in percentage of loses. The 147s came out with less percentage of loses than the others.
Also the +P didn't really add the velocity too much to the short barrel. Most of the propellant is wasted after the bullet left the barrel but the muzzle blast was cool though.
EDIT: Test the 147s in your gun first before carry.
MichiganScott
Member
You will get less than 900fps with a 147gr. bullet from your Shield. That's questionable velocity for expansion, although penetration would be adequate. You end up carrying a 7-8 shot .38 Special with old fashion lead round nose.
Carry whatever shows adequate accuracy and hits to point of aim.
Carry whatever shows adequate accuracy and hits to point of aim.
baccusboy
Member
.38 special lead round nose? Might be useful for you to brush up on some recent loadings.
You will get about 910fps out of the Shield with the Hornady TAP 147 gr. Out of the Glock 19, you are closer to 960. You will have no expansion issues with the HST at 910fps.
Shield Chrono results here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=660947
Some various barrel length and weight results. Speer Gold Dot 124+p Short Barrel looks great. Did well out of a 3".
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=213
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baccusboy
Member
Here is some chrono data with a Kahr PM9, which has a shorter barrel than the Shield:
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=124484
This is an excellent comparison of shooting the Federal HST 124 standard pressure out of various lengths of Glocks. The 147 grain should be similar in results, or actually lose a bit less:
124 Grain Federal HST JHP Chronographed Through A Glock 17L, 34, 17, 19, 26 - YouTube
The loss between the longest barrel Glock 17L and the Glock 26 was just 80fps.
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=124484
This is an excellent comparison of shooting the Federal HST 124 standard pressure out of various lengths of Glocks. The 147 grain should be similar in results, or actually lose a bit less:
124 Grain Federal HST JHP Chronographed Through A Glock 17L, 34, 17, 19, 26 - YouTube
The loss between the longest barrel Glock 17L and the Glock 26 was just 80fps.
baccusboy
Member
And lastly, I dug this up... actual photos of Federal HST 147's out of a Kahr PM9 (3" barrel... shorter than the Shield, but comparable)
Concealed Carry Forum - 9mm Ammo Tested in Short Barrel Pocket Guns
No expansion issues whatsoever.
Concealed Carry Forum - 9mm Ammo Tested in Short Barrel Pocket Guns
No expansion issues whatsoever.
MichiganScott
Member
Apparently baccusboy is a fanboy of the Federal 147gr and we are in disagreement.
As you may get as much as 50FPS +/- in any given load and you have both slow and fast barrels, I'll stick with my +P 124gr or +P 115gr loads. That way I don't have to worry about a pistol with a slow barrel fired below zero with a load that may or may not be at the low end of acceptable velocity.
As you may get as much as 50FPS +/- in any given load and you have both slow and fast barrels, I'll stick with my +P 124gr or +P 115gr loads. That way I don't have to worry about a pistol with a slow barrel fired below zero with a load that may or may not be at the low end of acceptable velocity.
baccusboy
Member
I am the fanboy?
The Federal HST in 147gr is a top round. I provided links with chrono data and photos of how it performs in the real world with a slightly smaller barrel to refute uninformed bias in this thread. Examples of other top rounds were also included for purposes of comparison.
Next time, please feel free to back up any claims with data, rather than resorting to name-calling. It will prove more helpful to the OP.
The Federal HST in 147gr is a top round. I provided links with chrono data and photos of how it performs in the real world with a slightly smaller barrel to refute uninformed bias in this thread. Examples of other top rounds were also included for purposes of comparison.
Next time, please feel free to back up any claims with data, rather than resorting to name-calling. It will prove more helpful to the OP.
I have asked these very questions, and this is what I have learned. Shot placement is way more important than xyz round. Any american made defense round will do it's job if you do yours. Personally, I practice using my 9mm shield using non plus p full metal rounds, and I keep 147 plus p fed HST in my shield for when I need it. I started with my first hand gun in 40 cal, so plus p in 9mm don't worry me. What's that they say YMMV?
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Give us a list of shootings where 147 gr. HST was used, please. No gel tests, only Street results. I'll bet you can't find five. I only know of one and it was at contact distance.
Why turn the 9mm into a lumbering .38 Special when we have decades of superb Street results with 115 gr. +p+ and Speer 124 gr. +p? 147 gr. 9mm was a loser in the 80's and it's a loser now. Too slow. Penetration is merely part of the equation. Velocity works in the 9mm. Thousands of shootings with Fed. BPLE has shown all but the most oblivious that it is the way to go.
Rpg
Member
First a disclaimer: I'm not a 9mm fan I like the 45acp
That said, all the gee whiz ammo in the world won't make a 9 a 45. After all, what you're trying to do is to get a 9 mm projectile to make a 45 cal hole.
The 9 mm is about as effective as a 38 special in one shot stops- making the bad guy stop doing the bad things he's doing (Colonel Cooper's research found about a 50% stop with 38's and 9's: 90% with the 45).
The bad things have to be bad enough so stopping him from doing them justifies the possibility that stopping him may eventually result in his loss of life.
We don't shoot to kill. We shoot to stop
Cooper came up with a relative index that used momentum (mass X velocity) and a factor for diameter of projectile that corresponds very well with observed results.
You don't get the published velocity with short barrels.
None of this matters if you don't hit what you're shooting at.
You're best served using the ammo you shoot a lot. I'd rather use cheap fmj ammo I've shot 1,000 rounds in MY pistol and know I can shoot well than some gee whiz stuff I don't shoot much.
By the way, what ever ammo you use, be sure you're gun will reliably function with it. If you haven't put 100 rounds of that ammo through your pistol with NO problem, don't use it!
You ammo must work in YOUR pistol, not my pistol, not someone else's pistol. There IS a difference. If your pistol won't reliably function, you have a high priced, light weight blunt instrument.
Use the ammo you shoot a lot, shoot well and that always works. Forget about trying to make your 9 into something it isn't.
That said, all the gee whiz ammo in the world won't make a 9 a 45. After all, what you're trying to do is to get a 9 mm projectile to make a 45 cal hole.
The 9 mm is about as effective as a 38 special in one shot stops- making the bad guy stop doing the bad things he's doing (Colonel Cooper's research found about a 50% stop with 38's and 9's: 90% with the 45).
The bad things have to be bad enough so stopping him from doing them justifies the possibility that stopping him may eventually result in his loss of life.
We don't shoot to kill. We shoot to stop
Cooper came up with a relative index that used momentum (mass X velocity) and a factor for diameter of projectile that corresponds very well with observed results.
You don't get the published velocity with short barrels.
None of this matters if you don't hit what you're shooting at.
You're best served using the ammo you shoot a lot. I'd rather use cheap fmj ammo I've shot 1,000 rounds in MY pistol and know I can shoot well than some gee whiz stuff I don't shoot much.
By the way, what ever ammo you use, be sure you're gun will reliably function with it. If you haven't put 100 rounds of that ammo through your pistol with NO problem, don't use it!
You ammo must work in YOUR pistol, not my pistol, not someone else's pistol. There IS a difference. If your pistol won't reliably function, you have a high priced, light weight blunt instrument.
Use the ammo you shoot a lot, shoot well and that always works. Forget about trying to make your 9 into something it isn't.
I would agree with a great deal of what you said,......... and in reality, it's the Indian, not the arrow ", so to speak. I must offer a differing opinion on the point of the 9mm's effectiveness or lack thereof. With modern loads, so called " Premium projectiles ", you can get performance into the .45 acp range. Not THEIR " Premium Projectiles ", but darned close. The .38 even with " Premium Projectiles ", doesn't exceed the 78-80% range while some 9mm rounds reach into the high 80's with the newest tech. My agency has had excellent results from the Golden Sabre 124 Plus P's. Your correct, use what works for YOU and shot placement always trumps the projectile.
Steve C
Member
I have a short 2-3/4" barrel "Gestapo" Walther P1K and a standard 4.9" P1 that I ran a couple types of ammo over the chrono to see what the velocity loss was.
The results where as follows.
124gr Hot Shot 9mm:
P1 4.9" BBL average vel. 1,054 fps (5 shots)
P1K average vel. 952 fps (5 shots)
102 fps delta
Winchester 147gr USA JHP's
P1 4.9" BBL average vel. 949 fps (5 shots)
P1K average vel. 614 fps (5 shots)
335 fps delta
Hand load 115gr Rem JHP's, 6.0gr Unique, S&B once fired case, WSP primers:
P1 4.9" BBL average vel. 1,257 fps (5 shots)
P1K average vel. 1,139 fps (5 shots)
118 fps delta
So in my limited test with the guns and ammo that where used the heavy 147gr bullet lost the greater velocity of 335 fsp than the factory 124gr bullet or the 115gr hand load which only lost a little over 100 fps.
If I was selecting factory ammo for a short barrel 9mm it would be something with a muzzle velocity greater than 1,100 fps from a 4" or 5" barrel in either 115 or 124 gr or at least 900 fps in 147 gr.
Any of the Federal HST 124gr or Speer 115 and 124gr Gold Dots, Remington GS 124gr and HSP 115gr +P, Winchester 115gr JHP all meet that criteria. Don't assume the 147gr bullets will loose less velocity until you try them out of your pistol over a chronograph.
The results where as follows.
124gr Hot Shot 9mm:
P1 4.9" BBL average vel. 1,054 fps (5 shots)
P1K average vel. 952 fps (5 shots)
102 fps delta
Winchester 147gr USA JHP's
P1 4.9" BBL average vel. 949 fps (5 shots)
P1K average vel. 614 fps (5 shots)
335 fps delta
Hand load 115gr Rem JHP's, 6.0gr Unique, S&B once fired case, WSP primers:
P1 4.9" BBL average vel. 1,257 fps (5 shots)
P1K average vel. 1,139 fps (5 shots)
118 fps delta
So in my limited test with the guns and ammo that where used the heavy 147gr bullet lost the greater velocity of 335 fsp than the factory 124gr bullet or the 115gr hand load which only lost a little over 100 fps.
If I was selecting factory ammo for a short barrel 9mm it would be something with a muzzle velocity greater than 1,100 fps from a 4" or 5" barrel in either 115 or 124 gr or at least 900 fps in 147 gr.
Any of the Federal HST 124gr or Speer 115 and 124gr Gold Dots, Remington GS 124gr and HSP 115gr +P, Winchester 115gr JHP all meet that criteria. Don't assume the 147gr bullets will loose less velocity until you try them out of your pistol over a chronograph.
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