+P Through a Model 12: THE TEST...is done!!!!

[Art Doc]

Lawyers tell S&W to say no to +P. It's a load of BS. Factory +P (125@925) is barely a nice plinking load. Standard 38 Special ammo (158@730) has become little more than a BB gun.

The original 38 Special load (158@870) was deemed safe in any S&W from 1899 onward. Why the change in policy? Lawsuits by owners of crappy guns that blew up. Scared all the gun companies and ammo companies into reducing loads and voided warranties with anything other than wimpy, weak-kneed, watered-down standard loads.

 

[Jim NNN]

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind the original poster's test when there are countless affordable used S&W's out there that can be used with +p ammo (per manufacturer's recommendations.)

If Ford tells me not to use a certain type of Goodyear tire on their Explorer, why am I going to try and prove them wrong?

Oh well, I saw a 2 inch Model 12 a few weeks ago that I would've loved to have, regardless if it can shoot +p or not.

Nothing like resurrecting a thread that's been dead 3 years!

 

[scooter123]

I think the OP was trying to prove that S&W was being a bit over conservative concerning the use of +P ammo in the model 12. If you look at the numbers for standard and +P variants of 38 spl. it's apparent that 38 +P really isn't that much more powerful than the standard pressure.

He's also confirmed my personal choice of never purchasing any of the aluminum or scandium framed framed revolvers. While they may be easier to carry they do beat you up in an extended range session, even when shooting a rather mild caliber.

Finally, he's confirmed that the Speer Lawman is the really really GOOD stuff. One range I shoot at has this fully stocked in 9mm and 40 caliber and while a bit pricey it's proven to be the most accurate ammo I've used in my 40 calibers. Too bad that can't get any of the 38 spl. in because I'd love to get more, shot off my last 2 boxes of the 125 gn. 38 spl. doing some accuracy testing and the results were splendid. IMO Speer should dump the Blazer and start marketing the Lawman outside of the LE channel, because it's a really first class ammo.

 

[Don Dineen]

M12 use

Moondawg and others, My thing with the M12 is it is a nice looking and feeling packing piece. I rarely shoot my everyday use guns, but practice, and recently started IDPA, with an all steel M19-4". It is the first K-frame alloy frame gun I ever bought. I carried many J-frame guns. I traded a M60-2.125"-.357 for this M12. The M60 was too heavy for a pocket gun and if I have to wear a holster, I am going to carry a bigger gun.
Yes, I know I should be practicing more with the carry gun - but I found I can still shoot pretty good with any S&W that fits the hand. After decades of Glock use I fell in love with revolver shooting, all over again. The round butt model I found at an area store is nice and I do have this thing about having one for show and one for go.
I enjoyed finding this old thread. Thanks for your input.

 

[Art Doc]

Don, do what you want with your gun. My discussions on +P are motivated by this wild, erroneous notion (that you apparently share) that +P is somehow harmful to a quality made gun. There is no need to avoid +P as it's a very mild load that is 3,000 PSI below industry standards for the caliber. You don't to look for a gun "approved for +P" since EVERY 38 Special revolver is approved for +P.

 

[Don Dineen]

Saxon, I will most likely use my last box of Federal 158 gr. +P Nyclad. I use it in several guns now. It was a good load and it is too bad Federal stopped making it. The M12 I just bought is a very fine carry gun. As the weather cools I can wear a coat, which means I add a belt gun to the hardware. I always have a M642 where I carried it for back up for so many decades. After I retired I was attacked by a Rhodesian Ridgeback, as we practiced so often, I put my left hand into its mouth, grabbed it jaw and reached for my Glock. Opps, it wasn't there anymore.

 

[gagunner 2]

Don,sent you PM
gagunner 2

 

[stiab]

SP's test just proved...

Just to keep the record straight, it was former moderator Osprey that conducted the test.

While they may be easier to carry they do beat you up in an extended range session, even when shooting a rather mild caliber.

No truer words have been spoken in this entire thread. I have owned three Model 12's, am down to one now. At the range with 20 or more rounds of standard pressure ammo the web of your hand starts to really sting, and with +P there is an obvious different that is even more uncomfortable.

One reason for this is that with the M12 there are not many grip options until you get to the 12-4. Even RB airweight J frames have better availabe shooting grips (ex. Uncle Mike's combats, Pachmeyr and Hogue rubbers, etc.) than the M12's wood and metal.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

While they may be easier to carry they do beat you up in an extended range session, even when shooting a rather mild caliber.

No truer words have been spoken in this entire thread. I have owned three Model 12's, am down to one now. At the range with 20 or more rounds of standard pressure ammo the web of your hand starts to really sting, and with +P there is an obvious different that is even more uncomfortable.

One reason for this is that with the M12 there are not many grip options until you get to the 12-4. Even RB airweight J frames have better availabe shooting grips (ex. Uncle Mike's combats, Pachmeyr and Hogue rubbers, etc.) than the M12's wood and metal.

While this is undoubtedly true for some, for others it is not. Myself, I find a RB Model 12 with stock magnas and a Tyler to be very comfortable with standard ammo, and acceptable with 158 gr +P. The SB Model 12 equipped the same way is almost as comfortable, but not quite as fast to get my hand around. This business of fitting grips to the hand is very individual, and sometimes a bit tricky, which is why what stiab says about grip availability is so important. BTW, the 12-4, made from 1984 to 1986, uses standard K-frame grips.

 

[GatorFarmer]

That's an old thread revisited that I haven't seen in a while.

I used to carry a 12-3 2" RB. I got it used, it had belonged to a LEO who used it as his BUG before I got it. I don't know if he was the original owner. I paid 350 for it.

I used it as a pocket gun for a while. Made my own holster out of Cheezit boxes and tape. Worked great. Some rubberbands and tape helped with the grips, though I think that Badger can offer custom grips?

Anyway, on a whim I traded it for a 3" 31-1 in .32 S&W long here on the forum, still have that little .32. There was nothing wrong with it and it was a handy revolver. I wish they made a modern version of it.

I didn't worry about using +P ammo in it. I liked, at the time, the Remington 158gr +P LHP rendition of the old FBI load.

Compared to the 337 that I once had, the 12-3 snub seemed tame in its handling.

 

[Osprey]

...and the debate continues.

Some things never change...sprey

 

[dpast32]

OK, I guess I'll add my .02 cents worth. I have always loved 'Airweight' revolvers, & have ( & still do ) owned many of them. ( M12's, 642's, Colt Agent's & Cobra's, a couple of 4", but most were 2" Bbl. ) ALL of them WILL handle a LIMITED diet of +P ammunition, as all were proofed by their respective mfgr's prior to leaving the factory. With mine, I'll sight in with @ 12 rds to see where it shoots, & if the group is acceptable, I'll consider it adequate for close in, 7 yard line work. However, most of the mfgr's continue to tell us that the older, pre-improved guns should not be used with +P. This is a pure legal liability stance, to cover themselves in the event of any related legal action. Only Colt will OK limited use of +P in their alloy D frames. Their manual instructs that any ally revolver using a diet of +P should be returned to the factory every 2,000 rds for inspection. To me, that's a reasonable situation. As with anything in life, thete's always a price to pay, right ? If I don't choose to go the +P route, there are other options. Buffalo Bore offers I believe 3 decent NON +P loads in .38 Spl. Personally, I like their 148 gr. Full W/C, or their 158 LWC-HP ? ( IIRC, it's not an HP like it's +P cousin. ) Other 'big' mfgr's all offer NON +P loads, some better, some worse. And, when choosing a NON + P load, remember that's it's accuracy that wins the fight. Power does contribute it's share to the overall equation, but you need to put them into where they can do the job & that's in the accuracy dept. When I 1st began carrying, it was in the old pre-
hi-cap automatics era. Also, there were very limited choices available in +P loadings. Realizing all these factors, I figured that even though biggerthan a snub, for all around off duty use I chose a 4" Bbl Rd Butt Model 12. Boy, how I wish I never, ever sold it off ! Now, if S&W would only do a limited run of them in both 3" & 4" versions, put me down for 2 please. Oh, BTW; I know this is an S&W Forum, but I feel I should mention this anyway. If anyone's looking for a small, but very efficient .38 Spl.+P revolver so they retirebtheir cherished M-12, you might wish to check out Ruger's recent polymer, 3" bbl'd, adj. sight, @ 16 oz Model SP-101. ( IIRC, it's called the SXP or XP ? ) To me at least, it makes a great & very useful +P rated revolver for all around use. THANKS Guys, & sorry again for the long winded post.

Regards, dpast32

 

[ddixie884]

COOL!!!!!!!!!

 

[SuperMan]

Very interesting post....

Was looking over on GunBroker and there are two Model 12s with cracked frames for sale...one is supposed to be UNFIRED in the box...

Had a pair or very low milage -2s at one time. Looked like they came from a security company...holster wear with little sign of being shot...

Anyone know if all -3s take the standard K-frame grip or was it after a certain serial number...

Bob

 

[.220swift]

As others have said. Much thanks for test!!
I luckily ran into the dreaded, cracks, and whatever model 12
for very reasonable price 5 years ago. Handgun was pristine,
no turn line or nothing!! Was at local gun haunt and several of local experts fuming how anyone would purchase the time bomb.
$350 out the door as fast as I could whip out Card.
Mine has been absolutely flawless and no abnormal wear.
I reload so run just a little over .38 special pressure loads.
Just guessing; 650 ruonds and still tight.Iwould occasionally shoot
+ P's but maybe not more than a couple hundred additional.
Have nothing but praise for it. Even zapped an idiot coyote which
was 40 yards away. Most we see around here are at full throttle immediately not staring at me while checking cows!!

 

[Michaelp57]

Very interesting post....

Was looking over on GunBroker and there are two Model 12s with cracked frames for sale...one is supposed to be UNFIRED in the box...

Had a pair or very low milage -2s at one time. Looked like they came from a security company...holster wear with little sign of being shot...

Anyone know if all -3s take the standard K-frame grip or was it after a certain serial number...

Bob

Thank you for reviving this thread again. OP is a trooper for doing this test, and I'm glad he did. I don't have a model 12, but this was still really interesting to read through.

 

[VictorLouis]

Anyone know if all -3s take the standard K-frame grip or was it after a certain serial number...

Bob

The -1, -2, and -3 will take any, all K-frame grips RB or SQ as your gun is configured. There will just be a gap between the upper horns of the grip, and -the frame of the gun. The -4 and up have 'normal' K-frame width dimensions.

Osprey hasn't shown activity here for well over 3yrs. Does anyone know if he's O/K?