+P Through a Model 12: THE TEST...is done!!!!

That's one nice collection, stiab, in fact very nice! Can't wait to see results of your comparison.

Have to admit I do have a preconcieved notion on the subject, but hey, the chrono doesn't and it will tell the truth, whole thuth...
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Mike

P.S. Might be good to include Corbon in your testing (thanks Photoman!). Also heard that Buffalo Bore is pretty hot.
 
Staib,

Your comparison would make for a very useful and interesting topic here on the forum. I'd even be inclined to link it from this topic.

...
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sprey
 
Originally posted by handejector:
Did anyone check their library for this statement that S&W put out in the 70's? I know I read it numerous times in different sources. It MAY have appeared in Trade magazines for the gun industry also.
Originally posted by handejector:
An old Dude's recollection:
In the 70's, when +P ammo was a relatively new phenomenon, the question OFTEN arose as to what guns were safe with +P.
S&W put the word out at that time that "ANY S&W with a model number stamped in the frame WOULD BE SAFE with +P ammo".
IF anyone cares to search the "Reader's Questions" sections of magazines like "Shooting Times", "American Rifleman", and "Guns & Ammo", you will probably find that S&W quotation. Look in Skeeter's and Elmer's columns around 74-76 to start with, and the "Questions" in the "Amer Rifleman".
The "with a Model Number" statement would have precluded the ALUMINUM cylinder guns built in the early 50's.

Unfortuneatly my library for those years was disposed of but I do not remember ever reading a statement like or similar to that.-Dick
 
Gents,

Is this the statement you're looking for?

Originally posted by Paul5388:
Just as a reminder, this is what the current S&W revolver owner's manual (REV:REV071001) says on page 11.
“Plus-P” ammunition should not be used in medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by the absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke cut of the frame. (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is in the open position, see Figure 2).
 
Hey Osprey, you've still got 128 rounds to go.

Did you stop the test?
 
Originally posted by Stan:
Hey Osprey, you've still got 128 rounds to go.

Did you stop the test?

No...probably on March 14 I'll be able to finish the test.

...
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sprey
 
Osprey: I have been following your test of 1000 rounds of .38 Special +P ammunition in your S&W Model 12-2. Thank you for risking your revolver and spending so much time and money for your amusement and our education. I eagerly await the test's finish and your final report. I hope that your revolver shows no damage or dimensional changes after the test ends.
 
I am enjoying the info on this test . . THANKS!

On the question of older ammo vs new in terms of speed, I'm sure some of the forum members could tell you the date, but there was a change from using "pressure BBLs" to real guns for vel figures somewhere near the 80's. Posted vel of many factory rounds went down without any actual change in the factory load. As I recal, loading manuals made the same change close to the same time.

Doc
 
Originally posted by budrichard:
Originally posted by handejector:
Did anyone check their library for this statement that S&W put out in the 70's? I know I read it numerous times in different sources. It MAY have appeared in Trade magazines for the gun industry also.
Originally posted by handejector:
An old Dude's recollection:
In the 70's, when +P ammo was a relatively new phenomenon, the question OFTEN arose as to what guns were safe with +P.
S&W put the word out at that time that "ANY S&W with a model number stamped in the frame WOULD BE SAFE with +P ammo".
IF anyone cares to search the "Reader's Questions" sections of magazines like "Shooting Times", "American Rifleman", and "Guns & Ammo", you will probably find that S&W quotation. Look in Skeeter's and Elmer's columns around 74-76 to start with, and the "Questions" in the "Amer Rifleman".
The "with a Model Number" statement would have precluded the ALUMINUM cylinder guns built in the early 50's.
Unfortuneatly my library for those years was disposed of but I do not remember ever reading a statement like or similar to that.-Dick
FYI- March '76 Rifleman, in response to the NRA's query, the factory replied-

"Smith and Wesson .38 Special firearms identifiable by a model number (for example, "Model 36")which is stamped in the cylinder yoke cut, are designed to fire all brands of commercially manufactured .38 Special cartridges, including those which carry the +P designation. However,the service life of any aluminum alloy frame revolver, even one manufactured to Smith and Wesson's quality standards, may be adversely affected by frequent use of +P cartridges. Accordingly, Smith and Wesson does not recommend +P cartridges be used in such guns."

Also please note, the +P designation was adopted in early '74.

Good luck with the test!

"
 
Just referencing lefty lar's broke model 12 (see Post #154 below). Unfortunate, but I think it relavent to this thread. If +P's aren't cracking the frames on M12s, what is? (Is it as easy as saying it's an overtightened barrel???).

.... :)sprey
 
(Is it as easy as saying it's an overtightened barrel???).
I have seen on the forum that lots of folks say that, but I always wondered how many were speaking from personal experience and how many just repeating what they had read.
 
14 MAR 08

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Well, it’s done. I’ve successfully fired 1,022 rounds of +P .38 special through my M12-2 without blowing it, or me, up. In fact, it has been my experience that shooting +P through an M12 is more detrimental to the shooter then the M12. The test took a little over six months and required nine shooting sessions. Nine different types of +P ammo were used. Here’s a summary of cumulative round count by ammo type.

All rounds are +P unless otherwise noted:

Winchester 110 gr JHP – 35
Federal 125 gr Nyclad HP – 36
Georgia Arms 158 gr LSWCHP – 101
Winchester 125 gr JHP – 200
Remington/UMC 125 gr JHP – 200
Speer/Lawman 158 gr TMJ – 300
Speer LE 135 gr GDHP – 50
CCI Blazer 125 gr TMJ – 50
Federal Classic 125 gr JHP – 50
--------------------------------------------------
Total = 1022

For more details, check out The Log on page 1, second entry.

Also, I was asked after the 72nd round to “mike” the frame window and measure the B/C gap. Here’s the measurements from 1 SEP 07:

Horizontal (TOP): 1.818”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.818” (one side measured .001-.002” less)
Vertical (F): 1.477”
Vertical (B): 1.477” (one side measured .001” less)
B/C gap: 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).

And here are the measurements 950 +P rounds later.

Horizontal (TOP): 1.817”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.817”
Vertical (F): 1.479”
Vertical (B): 1.478”
B/C gap: Same as before, 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).

While this test can be considered a “success,” I want you all to know that in the future, my model 12s will NOT be firing +P ammo. While I’m confident the M12s can handle it, the only reason I would want to use +P ammo is in a self defense gun. My current armory has plenty of factory-blessed +P rated revolvers that I would rather carry then any of my cherished M12s.

There you go….enjoy!!!!

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sprey
 
Fascinating - thank you,
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sprey for your contribution to scientific knowledge of the actual abilities and limitations of the Model 12. You're in the running for 2008 Internet Citizen of the Year.
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Thanks for taking the time and expending the effort & ammo to do this and document it for us
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A concise and thorough account of this experience written by a a real world shooter & gun user is really great to see. I've followed this test since the beginning and felt that S&W warnings aside, the gun would do just fine.

Glad to see that the gun (and the shooter) survived intact!

Bill
 
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sprey,

Thanks so much for conducting & documenting this experiment.

I picked up a M12 about a month ago. While I don't plan on shooting +P ammo, I was concerned about whether or not the previous owner had ever shot +P in it. The frame looks fine and shows no signs of cracks.

Thanks again! I know it must have been a "painful" experience.
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Linda
SWCA #1965
 
Originally posted by digi-shots:
Thanks again! I know it must have been a "painful" experience.

Allow me to add a few more details to the "painful aspects" of the test. I didn't realize it until looking back at the picture just now that I left the sports tape (black) I put on the trigger to cover up the serrated face. You can still see it in the picture. I could never get the tape to cover the complete trigger face so I would end up with skin damage on the top side of my trigger finger and occasional on the bottom end (the tape would start to curl from the bottom up). Again, if I ever meet the engineer that invented the serrated trigger, I'd give him a piece of my mind to go with the several pieces of my shooting hand I've already given them.

Several sessions into the test, I got into a habit of putting 1 or 2 bandaids on the web of my hand before beginning a shooting session. The bandaids would eventually get pounded off and I would need to patch that up with some more sports tape.

The blister in the palm of my hand was a new event that only occurred at the last session.

Finally, after the last session, I started shooting my Glock 23, but after the pounding I got with M12, I was shooting the Glock very poorly. (I imagine I would have shot anything much worse then normal after the M12 session.) I secured my Glock practice after only 48 rounds, most of which didn't make a hole in anything I had hanging on the target caddy.
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...
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sprey
 
Osprey,

Thanks.
You've proved once again that skill and cunning will overcome ignorance and superstition every time.
 
First of all guys I want to profess strongly that I am no expert or even remotely close to claiming an expertise in this matter. But, I would like to tell you about my own experience with the model 12.

My son who is in Afghanistan bought a model 12 4" on gun broker that was listed as new. It was made in 1971 or1972. When I picked it up at my local FFl. Two guys who know quite a bit about weapons who run the place. Combined experience of over 70 years, both stated that it looked like it had never been shot. Maybe S&W test fire round.

My daughter-in-law & I then proceeded to take it out & shoot it. I had Winchester 38 special 130 grain target/range ammo. After my daughter-in-law fired about 50 rounds she said the sight was crooked. I said, it couldn't be. Sure enough it was turned a little to the left. So I took it to our local gunsmith & he said the frame cracked. Showed me a very slight crack. Said it couldn't be repaired.

I sent the gun to S&W, since I've learned on this forum that they might help. It was about 10 days & I get a call from S&W & they say the gun is way past warranty. The lady said the gun was not abused & that's the only reason they were going to help us. She said, it was possibly torqued a little too much in the assembly of the gun. I think they were also nicer to my plight because my son is serving in the Army. Anyway they are going to take care of us. I can't say how, because I said I wouldn't. Seems, some guys would try & send in all their old junks looking for something in return. This was a special case. Being the gun was like new.

Sorry, for the long letter. I think, it depends on each individual gun & how it will react to +P ammo. Like one guy said on another thread. When buying a older model 12 you better have a magnifying lens & really look for hairline crack on the frame. They can really be small. Please don't attack me for just saying what has been said by me. It's true & it just happened this month. Just wanted to tell our story so not everyone with a model 12 starts shooting +P ammo in them. If they haven't done it already. We only shot 38 special & it happened to us.

Lefty Lar
 
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