Paying to Rebuild the Ukraine

[biku324]

And yet little Ukraine isn't afraid of Putin and fights every minute of every day for freedom and self-determination. And they've done so even before we started sending ammo (not rides).

In the annals of history few nations have more of which to be proud.

 

[Chief Wiggums]

Original question, who will pay to help rebuild Ukraine?
we will of course, the USA, we always do because that is who we are.

While on the topic of rebuilding & finance, we have a tragic situation happening in Florida, the rebuild will take many years, and Ill state that many small business owners, homeowners will choose to not rebuild, because they are not financially able to do so. The homes are gone, they are no longer, physically there. The tourist and travel season is beginning right now , nobody........ will be going to Florida for R&R , for years....



All building materials have been on allocation since pre Covid - Round 1.
The materials that you can source (construction and contractors), will be unaffordable. Right now is when we will discover the reputable insurance companies are, my agent feels that many of the mid to small sized providers will go out of business since they will not be able to pay the enormous claims that are heading there way.
The problems for our Floridian friends are only just beginning.

Who is going to bails us out?
We cannot do this internally. The Europeans and others need to step up, as our economy, set a precedence for theirs...

 

[biku324]

Have any official requests from FL have been denied? Goodness me...

 

[Sam D]

I've heard from several people that we should have let Russia have Ukraine from the beginning.

 

[wood714]

The tourist and travel season is beginning right now , nobody........ will be going to Florida for R&R , for years....

The storm has changed things drastically for the areas hit by Ian. Most of the effected areas were hot spots for retirees, and snow birds.

There is still plenty of Florida left for the tourist trade. The east coast draws a lot of people, plus as far as I know the Disney area wasn't damaged too bad.

Florida is a lot tougher than many think.

 

[SMSgt]

The storm has changed things drastically for the areas hit by Ian. Most of the effected areas were hot spots for retirees, and snow birds.

There is still plenty of Florida left for the tourist trade. The east coast draws a late of people, plus as far as I know the Disney area wasn't damaged too bad.

Florida is a lot tougher than many think.

Yep. Florida tourism does not revolve around the Ft. Meyers area. Panama City will be busier as well as Ft. Lauderdale. Disney . . . well, Disney is like Covid--can't kill it. DeSantis has tried.

 

[Der Verminator]

And yet little Ukraine isn't afraid of Putin and fights every minute of every day for freedom and self-determination. And they've done so even before we started sending ammo (not rides).

"Little" Ukraine had only bad choices--afraid or not.

1. Give up.
2. Give up some land.
3. Fight and see their beautiful country destroyed.

Due to the assurances of help from Western nations.......they made bad choice #3 that ensured their beautiful country would be destroyed.

Their cities are in rubble and half of their people are now refugees who have nothing to come home to.

Blame hubris and the stupid behavior of the Western nations.

If the war continues........talking about how much it will cost to rebuild Ukraine is less relevant than talking about IF it can be rebuilt.

Fear and common sense might have been wiser.

Especially if tactical nukes come into play.

 

[UncleEd]

It would seem some here preach
the "peace in our time" philosophy.

But it never works in dealing with
determined dictators or the preservation
of democracy.

 

[biku324]

Indeed. Putin has proven in South Ossetia and Crimea he's only stopping when someone stops him. Hitler should have been pushed immediately back out of the Rhineland in 1936 and the nibble-nibble strategy would have died quickly. Without WWII, by the way.

Isolationism and appeasement are identical in effect.

 

[SMSgt]

"Little" Ukraine had only bad choices--afraid or not.

1. Give up.
2. Give up some land.
3. Fight and see their beautiful country destroyed.

Due to the assurances of help from Western nations.......they made bad choice #3 that ensured their beautiful country would be destroyed.

Their cities are in rubble and half of their people are now refugees who have nothing to come home to.

Blame hubris and the stupid behavior of the Western nations.

If the war continues........talking about how much it will cost to rebuild Ukraine is less relevant than talking about IF it can be rebuilt.

Fear and common sense might have been wiser.

Especially if tactical nukes come into play.

But the unemployment rate will be really low there.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

I've heard from several people that we should have let Russia have Ukraine from the beginning.

Keep in mind "the beginning" would be 2014 when we manipulated their election.

 

[Der Verminator]

Indeed. Putin has proven in South Ossetia and Crimea he's only stopping when someone stops him. Hitler should have been pushed immediately shoved back out of the Rhineland in 1936 and the nibble-nibble strategy would have died quickly. Without WWII, by the way.

Isolationism and appeasement are identical in effect.

You forget that Hitler didn't have nuclear weapons.

You're comparing apples to hand grenades.

And as for Putin.......NATO clearly stops him and Ukraine (what remains of it) will be joining NATO along with Finland and almost everyone else in the area.

So that settles that.

 

[biku324]

Keep in mind "the beginning" would be 2014 when we manipulated their election.

Urban myth from pundits here, not there. What happened in 2014 was the Maydan (or Maidan) Revolution. Check actual encyclopedia sites.

Ukraine - The Maidan protest movement | Britannica

Euromaidan Revolution

 

[dockmurgw]

You forget that Hitler didn't have nuclear weapons.

You're comparing apples to hand grenades.

And as for Putin.......NATO clearly stops him and Ukraine (what remains of it) will be joining NATO along with Finland and almost everyone else in the area.

So that settles that.

And the world is a better place after the soviet butchers get their arses handed to them, and the Ukrainians put the New Hampshire state motto on their license plates.

So that settles that.

 

[Der Verminator]

And the world is a better place after the soviet butchers get their arses handed to them, and the Ukrainians put the New Hampshire state motto on their license plates.

Well, the truth is that there's been butchery from both sides since 2014......atrocities from both the Ukrainians that favor Russia and those that favor a free Ukraine.

Maybe the world won't be a better place until the matter is settled and those who favor Russia can live in the traditionally Russian Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia and Crimea regions and those who are against Russia can live in Ukraine.

Then the two sides will be separated and can live in peace in their own country without factions or tribal strife.

Putin has set the stage for this peace and can now accurately portray attacks on the new Russian regions as aggression that will bring defensive actions up to and including tactical nuclear weapons. He now has the moral high ground.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail and Ukraine will cease and desist their attacks and begin the long process of reaching a negotiated peace at last.

It's been a long time of war since 2014 and time for an end.

Even if peace comes by spring or summer of 2023 the rebuilding of Ukraine will take billions of dollars and at least 20 years.

Having Russia share the cost of the rebuilding will undoubtedly be included in the peace negotiations.

 

[mtgianni]

Original question, who will pay to help rebuild Ukraine?
we will of course, the USA, we always do because that is who we are.

While on the topic of rebuilding & finance, we have a tragic situation happening in Florida, the rebuild will take many years, and Ill state that many small business owners, homeowners will choose to not rebuild, because they are not financially able to do so. The homes are gone, they are no longer, physically there. The tourist and travel season is beginning right now , nobody........ will be going to Florida for R&R , for years....



All building materials have been on allocation since pre Covid - Round 1.
The materials that you can source (construction and contractors), will be unaffordable. Right now is when we will discover the reputable insurance companies are, my agent feels that many of the mid to small sized providers will go out of business since they will not be able to pay the enormous claims that are heading there way.
The problems for our Floridian friends are only just beginning.

Who is going to bails us out?
We cannot do this internally. The Europeans and others need to step up, as our economy, set a precedence for theirs...

In 2010 Haiti had a devastating earthquake. The US pledged $20 million to help repair costs. A friend headed a project that would supply them with wood and training to build houses that were appropriate for the area. He made 3 or 4 trips to Haiti and arranged with local mills for product. To the best of my knowledge none of the #20 Million was ever spent or sent, just publicly announced as relief. Who knows where the blame lies.

The point is that money talked about and budgeted does not always mean what we think it means.

 

[UncleEd]

Maybe the world won't be a better place until the matter is settled and those who favor Russia can live in the traditionally Russian Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia and Crimea regions and those who are against Russia can live in Ukraine.

Putin has set the stage for this peace and can now accurately portray attacks on the new Russian regions as aggression that will bring defensive actions up to and including tactical nuclear weapons. He now has the moral high ground.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail and Ukraine will cease and desist their attacks and begin the long process of reaching a negotiated peace at last.

In February Russia invades
Ukraine and tries to capture its capital.

So Ukraine counter attacks, nearly all within
its own borders except for a
few border ammo dump strikes.

Putin makes claims on regions within Ukraine
with hastily thrown together referenda, the
votes literally taken under gun point.

He has "the moral high ground" after initially
starting the war?

And some believe eastern Europe will have
"peace in our time" if Putin gets his way.

Just 1930s aggressive gibberish.

 

[BSA1]

Original question, who will pay to help rebuild Ukraine?
we will of course, the USA, we always do because that is who we are.

Ukraine is a member of the European Union so they should get a lot of economic help from them.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

In 2010 Haiti had a devastating earthquake. The US pledged $20 million to help repair costs. A friend headed a project that would supply them with wood and training to build houses that were appropriate for the area. He made 3 or 4 trips to Haiti and arranged with local mills for product. To the best of my knowledge none of the #20 Million was ever spent or sent, just publicly announced as relief. Who knows where the blame lies.

The point is that money talked about and budgeted does not always mean what we think it means.

The money was all soaked up by the Clinton Foundation and it was way more than $20m.

In February Russia invades
Ukraine.. [snip]

...He has "the moral high ground" after initially
starting the war?...

See that's what people aren't getting about this conflict. Everyone watching the MSM only knows what has been happening since early 2022. This war has been going on since 2014. The people of Donetsk and Luhansk have been living in a state of essentially WW1 style trench warfare with their ethnic Ukrainian neighbors for eight years. When local ethnic Russians tried to break away from Ukraine they thought Moscow would jump in and help them the way they did in Crimea. Moscow refused to help. The reason Putin refused to annex Donestsk/Luhansk is because he did not want to force the pro-West gov't into joining NATO. Those ethnic Russians were abandoned to constant shelling, kidnappings, raids, etc from their own gov't in Kiev.

 

[biku324]

Ukraine is not in the EU, but has applied for membership. There are already EU institutions making the first 100 billion Euros available within weeks. One euro is worth 1.02 dollar today.

 

[Der Verminator]

He has "the moral high ground" after initially
starting the war?

Yes.

Suddenly Russia is not attacking Ukraine.........instead, Ukraine (and her NATO weapons providers) are now attacking Russia using the most modern high tech NATO weaponry.

Not hard to figure out why the chess pieces are moving as they are.

Russia is presenting this as proof that NATO has always been out to destroy her and is using Ukraine as a weapon.

 

[UncleEd]

Yes, ethnic Russians in eastern
Ukraine have tried to break away
from Kyiv's rule but the area is
within Ukraine's borders. It
belongs to Ukraine.

They saw an opportunity with
the 2014 Kremlin seizure
of Crimea to repeat
that success. It didn't work.
Ukraine fought to stop further
loss of land.

And it continues to do so since
the initial Russian attack toward
Kyiv.

Putin's grand plan just hasn't worked
out for him yet or ever.

 

[biku324]

The money was all soaked up by the Clinton Foundation and it was way more than $20m.



See that's what people aren't getting about this conflict. Everyone watching the MSM only knows what has been happening since early 2022. This war has been going on since 2014. The people of Donetsk and Luhansk have been living in a state of essentially WW1 style trench warfare with their ethnic Ukrainian neighbors for eight years. When local ethnic Russians tried to break away from Ukraine they thought Moscow would jump in and help them the way they did in Crimea. Moscow refused to help. The reason Putin refused to annex Donestsk/Luhansk is because he did not want to force the pro-West gov't into joining NATO. Those ethnic Russians were abandoned to constant shelling, kidnappings, raids, etc from their own gov't in Kiev.

Igor Strelkov, leader of the Slavyansk separatists in 2014, is competently accused of kidnapping, torture, and murder during his attempt to try to 'Crimea' eastern Ukraine. Credibly means there's video. Strelkov's de facto biographer and Russian apologist wrote '85 Days in Slavyansk,' Alexander Zhuchkovsky, a propaganda book available on Amazon. That propaganda is one of many disinformation efforts by Russians against Ukraine. You'll find identical anti-Ukrainian disinformation therein.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

Yes, ethnic Russians in eastern
Ukraine have tried to break away
from Kyiv's rule but the area is
within Ukraine's borders. It
belongs to Ukraine.

They saw an opportunity with
the 2014 Kremlin seizure
of Crimea to repeat
that success. It didn't work.
Ukraine fought to stop further
loss of land.

And it continues to do so since
the initial Russian attack toward
Kyiv.

Putin's grand plan just hasn't worked
out for him yet or ever.

Your timeline is confused. We struck first when the State Dept sponsored a "color revolution" through NGO's like Open Societies. At issue was the future of LNG pipelines to Western Europe and IMF loans vs subsidized energy and a large bailout from Moscow. Euro Maidan was a State Dept. op to replace the gov't in Kiev with one aligned with the West, not Moscow. Maidan included actsof violence and repression against ethnic Russians, culminating in a sham election choreographed from Washington. Kiev immediately began a campaign of violence and alienation against it's ethnic Russian citizens. The spearhead of these efforts was and is the neo-Nazi paramilitary organization known as Azov Battalion. Azov was initially an anti Russian terrorist organization clandestinely used by Kiev as an instrument of violence that has since been absorbed and acknowledged as an organ of the Ukrainian military.

Moscow reacted by annexing the traditionally Russian region of Crimea but refused to help Russian seperatists who tried to break away from Kiev.

 

[biku324]

Could one prove any of that in court?

 

[UncleEd]

Post #84 certainly clarifies the
Ukraine situation to wit in
2013-4 pro West/pro democracy
citizenry forced pro Kremlin
stooges to flee. Petulant Putin
seized Crimea but failed to fully
back pro Kremlin separatist
in eastern regions. Then in 2022
he tried to crush the upstart
democracy by attacking its capital.

 

[dockmurgw]

I am now a firm believer in reincarnation...Neville Chamberlain is back.

 

[Yaworski]

He now has the moral high ground.

Only in the distorted world view pushed by public education do you get to attack someone and then cry "Foul!" when they retaliate.

Maybe the world won't be a better place until the matter is settled and those who favor Russia can live in the traditionally Russian Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia and Crimea regions and those who are against Russia can live in Ukraine.

Gee, when a group of people in our country wanted to leave, a bloody war was the result and the man who started that war is lauded as a hero.

 

[Der Verminator]

Only in the distorted world view pushed by public education do you get to attack someone and then cry "Foul!" when they retaliate.

Childish?

No, the standard children's excuse for a fight is "he hit me first."

Exactly what Ukraine is saying.

The adult response is instead, "let's make peace now."

 

[mtgianni]

Childish?

No, the standard children's excuse for a fight is "he hit me first."

Exactly what Ukraine is saying.

The adult response is instead, "let's make peace now."

I believe the adult response is "Give me back my stuff you stole, and we can make peace now".