pc'd bullets vs traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets

The Hi Tec Supercoat Polymer coated bullets tech came from Australia where it has been used for a long time,

I am converting over to them. I have not tried any powder coated ones nor the difference as far as barrel wear. I do know that clean up is much easier and there is little to no smoke due to lack of conventional lube,

Bayou Bullets (Donnie Miculek) has good ones as does Missouri Bullets.

About Our Coatings - Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings

You casters can buy the chemicals and coat your own or the powder coating.

I would like to see some data comparing the two.
 
Yes, shotgun shooters know this and are still questioning what to use, and how to use it, to remove the fouling from their guns. Plastic wad debris DOES get built up in the throats and especially the chokes on shotguns, and has to be removed from time to time.

Interesting to say the least!!!

Back in the day I shot a little shotgun, nothing fancy just 8 to 12 boxes of ammo a week for 10 years straight. Bought an 1st year (1952) 870 off of a guy at a gunshow. He was old and sitting there with a couple of things on the table. I asked if I could sit down and started talking to him. He was done shooting and was selling everything off. I bought almost everything he had including that 1952 remington 870. He bought it new and it was setup for skeet, he used it until I bought it in 1990. I used it until the receiver finely wore out in 2000 and sold that skeet bbl to a friend. He was teaching his daughter how to use a shotgun. Her son is now using that same bbl to this day.

A fellow named Bill Barbour was a 2 time national champion and I'm not sure how many state titles he had. He used 2 1100's and the same 1100/bbl for 20+ years. Used to walk the garand with him when it was held in vandalia, everyone knew him, Hi bill, what's going on bill, glad to see you back bill, etc. While he has there he'd go to vender's row and get parts (that's why 2 1100's/spare when something broke in the receiver) from the remington rep. The 1 year he saw bill coming and already cryings about it. A come on bill, that's old iron your using. Bill got his parts for free. He never did wear that bbl out.

Jim hawk was a state champion in the 80's with countless 1000's of rounds in his shotguns. He still has them and uses them to this day.

Hawk taught a fellow shooter skeet and he,Rich olah, became a state champion in the 90's and he still uses the same shotgun to this day.

These guys were using bore snakes or the rods with the cleaning sleeves that were washable after every session. I just used a bore snake with clp on it for 6 or 7 years and never had any build-up in the bbl/choke. The gritty trigger and action are another story.

In my little neck of the woods the receivers go before the bbl's do on our shotguns. The triggers and timing goes out on our pistols before the bbl does. And we work extremely hard burning out bbl's on our rifles, so far I've worn out bbl's on 2 03-a3's, a 300mag & sks and a 223ar. But that was with jacketed bullets.

The aussie's have been shooting coated bullets for over a decade now and haven't reported any bbl wear issues, loss of accuracy or anything else.

If you are having problems with plastic in your shotguns or are unsure of what it might do to your bbl's, then by all means, don't use any coated bullets.

Myself, I enjoy the heck out of them and the accuracy they bring to the table. And if the coated bullets wear a bbl out in 50,000 rounds compared to 100,000+ for traditional lead. Big deal!!!! I wore another one out and had a smile on my face the whole time.

As far as mfg's selling ammo with coated bullets, time will tell. Bullet coating is really still in it's infancy in this country. Only 4 years ago (2012) there was a big push to figure out the easiest/cheapest way for the home caster to coat their own cast bullets. What you'r seeing today on this website and in this thread is the fruits of their labors. It started with people communicating with the aussie's on how/what they were doing. And now 4 years later, their efforts have spread and turned into what you're seeing today. I've only been coating bullets for 3 years now and have run a little over #500 of cast/coated bullets thru different firearms. The firearm/bbl that has seen the most coated bullets (10,000+) is a custom 1 in 10 twist 6" 357 bbl. So far the accuracy is still there but then again it only gets a diet of 158gr bullets doing 1350fps+ with 33,000+psi loads.

Anyway, coating bullets allows casters to re-purpose molds like the protxbore molds that used to use the zinc washers.



On the left are 44cal's and 35 cal's on the right. They can be used as swc's or be turned around and be loaded as button nosed wc's.

A close-up of the protxbore bullet. Left, a 110gr button nosed wc (h&g #41) next to the protxbore 35cal (9mm/38spl/357) on the right.



When cast, where the zinc washer used to go forms a button nosed drive band when loaded as a swc. And can be crimped in the groove under that band making it a bullet nosed wc that has a boattail.
 
I am a fan of the Coated bullets, but can not compared them to shotgun barrels.

They do not have lands and grooves. Smooth bores are easy to clean. Acetone, say in home made Eds Red cleans out any plastic residue. Probably would work on any trace of coatings.

Last trip to the range I shoot several hundred coated 9mms. Cleanup was maybe 2 patches with CLP and a brush. Normally 6 or more.
 
Great post Forrest, I've been thinking about trying out pc, but haven't yet. I was taught reloading by my 80 year old grandpa, so I'm sure a lot of my practices are out of date. My bullets still shoot though. This post convinced me to give it a try. Thanks.
 
Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.
 
Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.

Thais not entirely true, at least for the Hi Tech Polymer coated bullets. The reason they have been used in Australia for so long is that they contain much of the lead. Some lead free ranges allow them as long as lead free primers are used.

What you say about proper size and alloy is correct but there still exists a lot of problems with leading, not everyone has the advantage of picking the correctly sized bullets with the right alloy for all velocities and calibers.
 
Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.

I was slow to the coated bullet process, but it is not a solution looking for a problem. You get essentiallly a more user friendly plated bullet that is cheaper & can easily be done at home. Less smoke, no leading, cleaner guns,kinda hard not to like the process. I'm not selling my Star sizer, but i am using it a lot less.
Powder coated or HT, pretty much the same but the pc will take higher vel & still give good accuracy.diff invel betweenthe two, within the std dev.
 
Thais not entirely true, at least for the Hi Tech Polymer coated bullets. The reason they have been used in Australia for so long is that they contain much of the lead. Some lead free ranges allow them as long as lead free primers are used.

What you say about proper size and alloy is correct but there still exists a lot of problems with leading, not everyone has the advantage of picking the correctly sized bullets with the right alloy for all velocities and calibers.

I will respectfully request to disagree... it just ain't all that hard to fit the projectile to the bore, and that is the overwhelming majority of the issue.

Alloy, sizing, and lube, in that order. Simple as that. Most commercial casters sell something that is too hard, sized too small, and has a lube much too hard for the average application. The results are disastrous, and I know, because I bought long before I ever cast my own.

If you know what to look for, all these issues are very easily answered, even if you buy your projectiles.
 
I just started running Bayous and can't get over how clean they shoot.

Just wish I could get better accuracy out of their 158 grain round nose. My home-cast WCs & SWCs shoot rings around them.
 
Interesting to say the least!!!

Back in the day I shot a little shotgun, nothing fancy just 8 to 12 boxes of ammo a week for 10 years straight. Bought an 1st year (1952) 870 off of a guy at a gunshow. He was old and sitting there with a couple of things on the table. I asked if I could sit down and started talking to him. He was done shooting and was selling everything off. I bought almost everything he had including that 1952 remington 870. He bought it new and it was setup for skeet, he used it until I bought it in 1990. I used it until the receiver finely wore out in 2000 and sold that skeet bbl to a friend. He was teaching his daughter how to use a shotgun. Her son is now using that same bbl to this day.

A fellow named Bill Barbour was a 2 time national champion and I'm not sure how many state titles he had. He used 2 1100's and the same 1100/bbl for 20+ years. Used to walk the garand with him when it was held in vandalia, everyone knew him, Hi bill, what's going on bill, glad to see you back bill, etc. While he has there he'd go to vender's row and get parts (that's why 2 1100's/spare when something broke in the receiver) from the remington rep. The 1 year he saw bill coming and already cryings about it. A come on bill, that's old iron your using. Bill got his parts for free. He never did wear that bbl out.

Jim hawk was a state champion in the 80's with countless 1000's of rounds in his shotguns. He still has them and uses them to this day.

Hawk taught a fellow shooter skeet and he,Rich olah, became a state champion in the 90's and he still uses the same shotgun to this day.

These guys were using bore snakes or the rods with the cleaning sleeves that were washable after every session. I just used a bore snake with clp on it for 6 or 7 years and never had any build-up in the bbl/choke. The gritty trigger and action are another story.

In my little neck of the woods the receivers go before the bbl's do on our shotguns. The triggers and timing goes out on our pistols before the bbl does. And we work extremely hard burning out bbl's on our rifles, so far I've worn out bbl's on 2 03-a3's, a 300mag & sks and a 223ar. But that was with jacketed bullets.

The aussie's have been shooting coated bullets for over a decade now and haven't reported any bbl wear issues, loss of accuracy or anything else.

If you are having problems with plastic in your shotguns or are unsure of what it might do to your bbl's, then by all means, don't use any coated bullets.

Myself, I enjoy the heck out of them and the accuracy they bring to the table. And if the coated bullets wear a bbl out in 50,000 rounds compared to 100,000+ for traditional lead. Big deal!!!! I wore another one out and had a smile on my face the whole time.

As far as mfg's selling ammo with coated bullets, time will tell. Bullet coating is really still in it's infancy in this country. Only 4 years ago (2012) there was a big push to figure out the easiest/cheapest way for the home caster to coat their own cast bullets. What you'r seeing today on this website and in this thread is the fruits of their labors. It started with people communicating with the aussie's on how/what they were doing. And now 4 years later, their efforts have spread and turned into what you're seeing today. I've only been coating bullets for 3 years now and have run a little over #500 of cast/coated bullets thru different firearms. The firearm/bbl that has seen the most coated bullets (10,000+) is a custom 1 in 10 twist 6" 357 bbl. So far the accuracy is still there but then again it only gets a diet of 158gr bullets doing 1350fps+ with 33,000+psi loads.

Anyway, coating bullets allows casters to re-purpose molds like the protxbore molds that used to use the zinc washers.



On the left are 44cal's and 35 cal's on the right. They can be used as swc's or be turned around and be loaded as button nosed wc's.

A close-up of the protxbore bullet. Left, a 110gr button nosed wc (h&g #41) next to the protxbore 35cal (9mm/38spl/357) on the right.



When cast, where the zinc washer used to go forms a button nosed drive band when loaded as a swc. And can be crimped in the groove under that band making it a bullet nosed wc that has a boattail.

I've only been shooting trap since the 1980's, but changes in forcing cones, ported barrels and removable chokes have changed alot of things in the shotgun game since the 1950's, as well as changes to the materials used in wads today. i honestly don't know, chemically, how that relates to coated bullets, but do know that plastic buildup can be an issue for one who shoots alot. The typical pistol and rifle rounds also operate at much higher pressures than normal shotgun trap loads. One would think that also may change things.

I'm interested in following this new technology, primarily since I really was disappointed wtih the plated bullets I've tried(in terms of accuracy). I persoally find that cast, lubed bullets work fine for my purposes, but would like something with less smoke on occasion(indoor).

How come this technology came from the aussies? I didn't think they were allowed real guns anymore.
 
Great post Forrest, I've been thinking about trying out pc, but haven't yet. I was taught reloading by my 80 year old grandpa, so I'm sure a lot of my practices are out of date. My bullets still shoot though. This post convinced me to give it a try. Thanks.

Nothing wrong with the way grandpa did it. I learned most of my woodworking skills from grandpa and I still have tools and guns he gave me. Died with all his fingers and I plan to do the same.

I also appreciate the post and responses. Lots of good info here.
 
PC bullets are pretty much the only stuff fired down here, my club banned copper washed bullets (that many of us used) b/c someone thought they over penetrated the barriers....I've shot thousands.... they can lead a barrel, only when poorly used, Winchester re-manufacture 9mm down here and had been crimping the projectiles too hard, scraping/pinching the coating, that would leave a mess behind, these projectiles were also a tad too small....I had a heap of them, and figured out if I shot 30 or 40 of them at the start of a session and then finished with my PC coated loads it would clean the lead the crape ones had left behind...the ones I shoot are red and I never find a trace in the barrel....
 
How come this technology came from the aussies? I didn't think they were allowed real guns anymore.

Some of us give our finger prints, participate in a certain number of competitions per year and report this to the police, are a member of a club, allow the police to enter our homes without a warrant to inspect our storage, fill out forms to justify each revolver/pistol, own a safe for storage that are inspected ...I reckon we pioneered it because jacket ammo was all imported and too expensive...and in a small market like this people invent stuff to "make do" because buying stuff from o/s was really expensive when our dollar was trash :)
 
Some of us give our finger prints, participate in a certain number of competitions per year and report this to the police, are a member of a club, allow the police to enter our homes without a warrant to inspect our storage, fill out forms to justify each revolver/pistol, own a safe for storage that are inspected ...I reckon we pioneered it because jacket ammo was all imported and too expensive...and in a small market like this people invent stuff to "make do" because buying stuff from o/s was really expensive when our dollar was trash :)

Good lord, man. I really feel your pain.
 
Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.

Good answer.
You're absolutely correct and more importantly, you're happy with what you've found, made created!!!!

Perhaps you could give me a little advice on what alloy, lube and size bullet I should try with a couple of my non-existent problems.

1. I like to shoot firearms with muzzle breaks and ports. For some odd reason lead bullets clog those holes and pc'd bullets do not. Any idea what lead alloy or size bullet I should use/try for these 357's that have muzzle breaks installed on them.


2. I like to shoot:
Home swaged lead/jacketed bullets what alloy for the cores
8,000psi/14,000psi hollow base bullets
13,000/21,000psi spl loads
25,000psi/30,000psi loads
35,000+psi loads
Any recommendations on the different alloys I should use for those different pressure ranges???? Along with, "Can I use the same lube for everything from light hb pistol loads to high pressure/speed rifle loads"???

3. I have 3 different 9mm's that the bbl's slug 3 different sizes along with 10 different 38spl/357 bbl's that are different. I like to shoot anything from 8,000psi target loads in them to 30,000+psi mag/9mm loads along with the bbl's slugged out anywhere from .355 to .358. Any idea how many different alloys and how many different bullet sizes I should use to get the right alloy/fit combo for all of these different firearms and loads. Can I use the same lube with all those different loads???

4. I like to shoot 44cal's been a huge fan of them for decades. They slug out anywhere from .429 to .432 and a couple of them are 44psl's and the rest are 44mags. I keep the special loads around 9,000psi to 13,000psi and the 44mag loads around 16,000psi to 35,000+psi using anything from 5 different hbwc's/wc's to 310gr rf's. Any idea how many different alloys, lubes and sizes I need for the 44cal's???

I'll give those non-existent problems I've encountered using traditional size/alloy/lube a try.

1. None/zero/nada, there's no lead alloy/size that will work. Lead bullets clog ports and muzzle breaks along with spraying fine lead on sights/etc. You have to use either jacketed or coated bullets. And yes coated bullets are the cat's meow in cans.

I'll give it the simple version for the rest of the answers with pc'd bullets:
2. 1 alloy for everything including questions 3/4
3. 1 size
4. 1 size

Opps, forgot the lube/lubes for all those different applications?
1

So lets see, I use 1 alloy for everything (9/10bhn range scrap,free), 1 lube for everything and 1 size for each caliber. And they can be shot in firearms with ports, muzzle breaks and cans.

What did you come up with using your traditional correct alloy, correct lube, correct size method????

If I was a gambling man I'd bet you didn't come up with 1 alloy/lube/size for each caliber.

And yes I know a little about screw in chokes, own/use several. Hate to tell you how many different screw in chokes I've honed/polished to get a specific load on center with an excellent pattern/even shot density for a specif yardage, hence 21yds for skeet and 16yd and specif yardages for handi-cap in trap.

Enjoy
 
Except for dealing with messy lubes and the grimy cleanup I have no real problem with traditional cast and lubed bullets. They work, and give me most satisfactory accuracy and when loaded right very little or no leading. I will try the high tech coatings if and when it is demonstrated that these coating leave no permanent bore deposits, and cost is more in line with plain lubed bullets. I really do not want to mess with Acetone and other chemicals when I can use what I have and clean up with good old Hoppe's.
The high tech idea is intriguing but I have the total traditional casting/lubing setup and long since have it paid for. The new process is going to have to be markedly better for me to make the switch in total. I will almost certainly try them once the bore deposit issue is answered to my satisfaction but at this late date in my shooting career doubt I will be completely switching over.
 
Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.

Technology marches on.
Remember TV's that you had to get out of your chair to turn a dial and change 1 to 12 channels. How about Corded phones? We seemed to talk to folks OK.
Computers what's that?, Digital photos? LP albums and record players?
:)
For a non existent problem they sell a hell of lot of them;)
 
If PC and Hy-tec are here to stay do you suppose lube grooves will slowly disappear? I wonder if a more consistent bearing surface in lead bullets would be more beneficial or less? I'm curious about that.

played with it ...
there are some upsides to it.
Without the groove setting a minimum length, it is now possible to cast lighter, higher velocity bullets.
They do seem more accurate, and behave a bit more like jacketed.
And while more of a rifle advantage, the BC is higher without the grooves acting as air brakes.
 
Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.

Way back in the history of coatings on this forum, I beat the ever lovin poo out of some cast 30-06 loads, taking them as far as I could, then setting some practical limitations for a coated plain base rifle load.

after developing a practical 2700FPS load, and facing resistance similar to what you offer from another of our board of experts, I told him that you cannot remain a true expert if you do not remain current in your field.

He see's today, that I fed him no bull, and ... he's current in his knowledge.
 
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