Period correct, quality refinishing - why does it kill collector value?

[srgvaz]

So if you mess up the rear sight you should keep it looking like that. If you replace the rear sight or decide to touch up any bare metal spots it will make the thing worthless to the gun world. Don't bother replacing a broken hammer nose or main spring it would be worth more if you keep the broken one in place. Your best bet would be to replace the bad with a used period correct part and sell the whole thing for what you can. And if your water heater ever brakes and your guns get wet you might as well throw them away because if you refinish anything they'll be worthless to a real collector.

I see everyone's point in this thread but some folks take the whole thing to seriously. There are millions of guns (and parts) out there. If you own the thing 50 or more years once you pass and this generation gets a hold of them they'll most likely sell or pawn it to fund the purchase of a new "Playstation" or something to of that nature. Enjoy what you have it won't matter in 100 years when all guns will be plastic and ION Plasma Pulse charged with a one mile laser guided range.

 

[borntoraisehogs]

The flip side of your very good point is, why do people get all confused about a little honest holster wear? Send it to the factory and then what ? Never use it again? I hope you and all S&W fans are blessed with health enough to Shoot it so much the next question about that piece is from your grand kids asking if that model was ever produced in plain polished steel cuz that's how we got it from gramps. " Boy could that old goat shoot"

 

[bettis1]

In discussing this point of the impact of a refinish on value we must remember that the age of the gun is one of the most critical factors. There is a reason that Lee divided this part of his Forum up into four rooms. As we move from the "Antiques" to the "Present" the answer to the question changes dramatically...at least for me. Few people would question whether refinishing a well worn and historic old American Model would diminish its value. On the other hand, with a current example of one of the pimpled, glow-worm sighted, three piece barrel, unobtainium models, who would care. If it was "made by the mile and cut off on both ends" and there is a show case full of them, why bother with a refinish.

The OP chose to put his question in the 1896 to 1961 room. Had it been placed in a different one, the answer for most of us would be different.

Bob

 

[pangris]

The OP chose to put his question in the 1896 to 1961 room. Had it been placed in a different one, the answer for most of us would be different.

Bob

True, and I thought carefully about the placement. In my mind, the question is specific to some late 50's 44 magnums - some that I own, some I'm considering purchasing.

 

[rhmc24]

Here are before & after pix of a restoration project which improved the value of the piece. Whether it was cost-effective is another story.

 

[rburg]

I've rarely been one for engraved guns myself, but I'm drifiting into unfamiliar territory with some of these.

My thinking, developed over the last 20 or so years is what got me to where I am today. Generally, you can only carry one gun at a time (I know, the Rambo types like to overload themselves.) But if you're only carrying one gun, then it should be a very good one for the task needed.

Sometimes in woods walking, a 22 Kit Gun is the best choice. If only because its light and you can carry enough ammo without turning yourself into a pack mule.

About 20 years ago one of my very good friends father passed away. We'd all gone camping together over the years. Also spent a good deal of time sitting around a camp fire with him. So I always was bothered with what to wear to a funeral. I selected a suit. White shirt, and a pretty nice silk tie with shotgun shells on it! Then I strapped on a H H Heiser gunslinger rig, and dropped (carefully) an engraved and inlaid Colt SAA. Lots of gold and nice carved ivory grips. Your ultimate BBQ gun. To a funeral.

The family was pretty broken up. Pop was one of those personalities that dominated. He was good natured and fun. Yes, on occasion he ruled with an iron fist. But as I worked my way up to view the body and talk with my friend, some idiot (a gentle term for them) asked "why do you need a gun at a funeral". My buddy heard the comment, and without hesitation said "Because Daddy would have liked it!" That ended the conversation, but it got a lot of smiles. And he was right. His father loved guns, and fancy ones at semi-formal events suited him just fine.

I hadn't thought of Pop for a year or so now. Something else I did for the old guy was gave him a cane. As he started to decline he really needed a cane to walk, but he was too proud. So I selected one from my collection and gave it to his son. He took it in and handed it to the old man. He scoffed and said "whats that". The reply was "it came from Dick and he thought you'd like it." The old man still had a sharp mind and he was wary. So my buddy took the cane and tapped it a few times against the leg of his easy chair. And out came the distinct rattle.

He said "what was that?" So is son just said "you figure it out," handed him the cane and left. It took the old man about 10 seconds to find the sword inside. He walked with it the rest of his life. Any time anyone even gave him a look, he'd shake the cane or tap it on the ground. It became his signature response.

This is a wide forum. We have room for different opinions on what gun collecting consists of or what is good and bad. Some here can't afford the best of everything. Some feel having an example of a rare gun is good enough for them. Others won't settle for anything less than perfect.

Guns are sometimes a burden. If you own the only known example of a model, you don't own it, it owns you. It's your responsiblity to maintain that gun as it is. It might not be worth the effort to you.

I have the opinion that almost anyone can oil, clean, and care for 10 or 20 guns (I'm also aware some can't manage to keep even one nice.) But once the number gets up above 50 or 100, just keeping track of them becomes a burden. You don't feel the pain with a poorly refinished 1970s vintage M10.

 

[long colt frazier]

Dick you made me tear up
Great post!

 

[Bill Bates]

Greetings, gentlemen.

I know it destroys the collector value.

Why???

Why does having a gun reblued by a master who can re-create that deep, fall into the gun blue kill the value?

What say you?

I think to answer this question you need to understand why or where something derives its collector value. Largely collector value comes from rarity. A gun can be rare because only a few like it were manufactured. It might be rare because someone important and note worthy. Another thing that may make something rare is condition. Here we're talking about condition.

Our older Smith & Wessons, like old Colts and Winchesters, were and are working guns. The men and woman that owned them, used them. They were carried in holsters and shot. The boxes were tossed in the trash they day the gun came home. All of that use shows on these old work horses. It is good honest wear. So most of these fine old firearms show wear and use.

The old Colt, Winchester or Smith Wesson that was carefully stored in its box and maintained were and are few and far between. Yes, they are truly rare. That is why original finish will bring more than a properly restored or refinished firearm. That original finish on what was meant to be a working gun is very, very rare. Toss in a box, tools and paper work on even a 40 or 50 year old revolver and it is even rarer. There is a high demand for original condition old firearms. High demand means high dollars.

A properly restored firearm will bring more than the same gun in worn out condition. That value will be about the cost of the worn gun plus the cost of the restoration. Some peoples work will bring more than others. The more common high speed buffing wheel job dropped in the blue tank may decrease the value. It is decreased because of the shoddy workmanship that showed no care or respect for the firearm. Yes that kills value.

Also just being "new in the box" may mean less down the road on some of the newer pieces. I'm sure there are more new in box, unturned and unfired Colt third generation Single Action Armys than fired guns and they will never be rare. I think Model 29-2 of Dirty Harry vintages will also be less than rare because so many were salted away in their cases to be never fired as God, Smith and Wesson intended. Winchester commemoratives are beginning to see value difference determined by the box condition.

For me give me an unfiddled with firearm with good honest wear and I'm happy. A proper refinish won't bother me much but I wouldn't pay the same price I would pay for a gun in high original condition.

And that is just this novices opinion.

 

[Tom K]

Now, we have inevitably settled into the semantics game.

Conserved is a valid term. If Ol' Betsy ever surfaced from the battle of the Alamo, I should certainly want to see it conserved.
Restored? -- NO.

Conserved, restored, refinished, reblued......

I've got another term to throw in the mix - rescued. I've found a couple of guns that have been modified or mistreated, that have (in my view) benefitted greatly from a factory refinish. They were ugly before, but look good now. They may have zero original finish, but are the better for it.

Here are some before/after pictures:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/85870-factory-refinished-m-28-2-45-12-pics.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/113385-model-58-refinished-s-w.html

In addition to these two, I've got an old DA .44 Russian top break that was chromed, that I sent in to David Chicoine. I sent it to him to have mechanical work done, but decided to bite the bullet and have him refinish it as well. It was already ruined before I got it and will never be worth what I'm going to pay for having it reworked. But, I feel that I will have rescued an old gun from an ignominious fate.

It's not rational, but it's what I thought ought to be done. Somewhat in the same vein as SDH's single shot - I would love to see a "before" picture. But I sure as hell wouldn't send off a Registered Magnum for a $300 reblue.

 

[SDH]

Assuming you are not pulling our leg...
Who did that restoration?
Steve Moeller?

Here are before & after pix of a restoration project which improved the value of the piece. Whether it was cost-effective is another story.

 

[rhmc24]

I did the prep work polished to mirror finish and sent it to Dale Woody to have markings replaced and blued. Markings are laser engraved. I have sent others (Colt 1902 and 1905s) to Turnbulls who does physical impression of lettering same as Colt did - but about double the price. Nobody but me has noticed the difference in the markings.

I would recco either the above. I sent one to another big name restorer who did a poor job of the markings.

 

[SDH]

Thanks rhmc24,
That's very impressive work on a very rare pistol!
Did you simply remove all of the pitted metal down to establish a new surface? I can't imagine filling ALL those pits!
I assume the marking were digitally copies form a good piece, as in scanned?
What type of bluing?
Best,
Steve

 

[rhmc24]

I did not fill any pitting, just ground it away and polished it. The Woody blue was the one that looked best to me on his website, not his charcoal blue. It is very close to the original Colt blue that I compare to original one in hi 90s condition. Turnbulls do a charcoal blue they say is the same process as the original. Here is the latest job of theirs:

 

[SDH]

I've been working with Doug Turnbull for 20+ years for CCH and charcoal bluing. I was totally unaware of Dale Woody?? do you know if he etches the lettering? I guess I ought to ask him?
Thanks for posting the pix of your Colts!
Here's a custom Marlin Turnbull charcoal blued and case colored for me with engraving by Michael Dubber. All the rest of the work is mine.

 

[rhmc24]

I'm sure Woody's lettering & logo are laser engraved. I never asked him but just my observation. I'm impressed with your engraving. I have done some engraving but don't consider myself an engraver at all. Biz-wise I restore early guns 1500-1800 for a few clients for 40 years which requires a little remedial engraving. The guns I engraved are my own - one done 25 years ago. Also one I replaced lettering by electrolytic reverse plating process.

 

[The Gila Bender]

Terrific thread, all. I would like to see a running thread or forum for conservation, restoration, rescues, and resto-mods.

I have two Bowen guns, a 45HD and a 44HE 3rdTarget built from an OD. I consider them to be "resto-mod." The 45HD is familiar to most here, but the 44HE 3rd Target is quite unique. Although neither are original and most likely not of interest to purist collectors, I believe them to be of greater value than the base models they were before the modifications. This is subjective, I know.

I have a 1943 Colt 1911A1 "rescue" found in a gunshop many years ago. Replaced GI slide, shot out barrel, badly worn reblue, but original trigger, hammer, and internals. I had it stripped, refinished, and a Jarvis barrel and other modern components installed, but no mods to the slide, frame, trigger, hammer, or sights. It's not collectible, heck, it's not worth what I have in it. But it looks like a WWII GI 45 on the outside, it's reliable, and it doesn't matter if it gets a scuff now and then.

My shooters are my shooters, no pretense about collectibility. IMO the values of 'conserved,' 'restored,' and 'resto-mod' lie in the quality of the work and the eye (and wallet) of the beholder.

 

[SDH]

Tom,
I'm a big fan of Hamilton Bowen's work at set up back to back with him at the Custom Gunmakers Guild Show several years ago; seeing, handling and discussing all of his display guns. (Colts, Smiths, Rugers, etc)

He and I are "custom gunmakers" another niche in the collectors world. What we do doesn't really fit into the other genres and are usually the creations of our's and our client's imaginations. When well done, and classically conservative our work is often appreciated by the guys that collect factory guns, but they always say they would rather own a 99% original.

Hamilton's customs have all the flavor and feel of vintage guns with features that simply weren't available, and are disdained or revered for just that. Personally, I love 'em! I'd love to see your Bowen guns and maybe we should start a thread of custom vintage S&W's??

I'll bet you are a shooter too!

The only Marlin parts on the custom rifle shown below are the action (altered from straight to pistol grip) the rear sight and the forend cap and yet it is styled after a Deluxe Marlin for the turn of the 20th century. Everything else is new including the octagon barrel with the round breech that is a dead giveaway that I incorporate for that purpose.

Hamilton stripped the re-nickle off of the New Model #3, rechambered the long cylinder from .38-44 to .44-40, had the barrel rebored by Cliff LeBounty and re-fit everything. The revolver was entiely hand polished before Michael Dubber engraved the guns as a set. Both guns were charcoal blued by Turnbull with case coloring touches and nitre blued screws done in my shop.

We created the only Marlin/Smith & Wesson set I've ever seen. There are several Wincheste/Colts sets around!

I had dreamed up the set when I aquired the refinished #3 in about 1993 and had both the original guns in my safe for about 10 years before I found a client interested enough (2005) to bankroll the project. He is a longtime Marlin collector (along with British shotguns) and other high-end firearms. He is also a shooter/hunter and shot a red fox with the custom rifle on his farm in Virginia.

 

[ElToro]

for quite a while now ive been seriously considering taking one of my shooter Colt 1911s and having some nice engraving put on it and then shipped off to colts for their model 0 package tune up and sights. i think i can probly have it all done for ~1200 out the door ( engraving &colt's work) based on what ive seen. i'm maybe 500-600 into the gun and id like to get some real ivory grips for several hundred more. im thinking even of having my name engraved on it ( i can hear the gasps) does that make it a 2k gun ? not ever. is it something that i will enjoy the rest of my life and hopefully my son and hopefully grandchildren as well ? probly

could i blow 1500 on a weekend in vegas and have nothing but a hangover to show for it ? pretty easily.

also thinking about doing the same with a few S&W revos including getting matching engraving on a model 60 and a stainless spyderco i have.

now, would i ever even consider re-bluing or stripping the wood on my 1920s win 94 that belonged to my great uncle, my 1887 parker damascus double that belonged to my great great grandpa ? or several guns that belonged to my natural grandpa that passed in 1957 2 decades before i was even born ? not likely ever.

what about general maintenance ? what if a gun breaks and parts need to be replaced. keep it as an expensive paperweight or fix it . but if you fix it its not original

now, im a big fan of Bowen and Turnbull and their work is out of sight. as long as something is not tried to be passed off as "original" and defrauding somebody, go for it. its your money and your gun

 

[bmcgilvray]

There is something inequitable and perhaps just a little dishonest about being able to purchase "condition" and to expect one's purchased restoration to merit the same respect, admiration, and value as is accorded to the minuscule number of recognizably desirable firearms that have survived to present day with all, or even an unusually large portion of originality still intact.

"A hypocrite despises those whom he deceives, but has no respect for himself. He would make a dupe of himself too, if he could."

William Hazlitt

 

[ralph7]

it is only original once.