Perma-Gel test results

[flop-shank]

I've had the idea for some time that it would be best to put my Perma-Gel test results in one easy to remember and find place. If anyone wants to copy and paste any of my previously posted results here (results I've posted in a format like below), feel welcome. While far from being a be-all-end-all, I believe that my test results will be a useful tool in helping people make a defensive load selection in a few different calibers. Also feel free to add any relevant test results of your own, provided they are in 10% gelatin or Perma-Gel. This will allow a more apples to apples comparison than other test media. Three handy reference that I've used are www.stoppingpower.net (test bed section, a search will yield a ton of useful data), www.brassfetcher.com ("old website" link on the home page) and www.goldenloki.com . Relavent chronograph test results are more than welcome also.

Hornady .44 magnum 180 gr. XTP JHP (9081)/5" Smith & Wesson 629.

Round #1 four layers denim/P-G, 13 3/4" pen. .764 avg. rec. dia. There are numerous secondary fragments noted.
Round #2 bare P-G 16 1/2"+ pen. ~.750 avg. rec. dia. This bullet exited block with considerable force and flattened against the fiberglass backstop. Serious fragmentation occured. There are six fragments penetrating to a depth of between 2 1/2" through 4" from the bullet's initial entry, radiating out in a cone shaped pattern roughly 2 1/4" in diameter.

Conclusions; I would be leary of this load for defense, even in cold weather, if overpenetration is a concern, from longer barrels. I do think this load would work well for hunting animals up to the size of small deer. For anything bigger I would use a heavier, or a nonexpanding bullet such as a SWC. Round #2 no doubt was much smaller when it exited the block of P-G, but was expanded by it's impact with the backstop. One might be able to use this round for hunting and Federal's excellent 180 gr. JHP offering for self defense if they fire to the same POI. There are also results for this load available at Brass Fetcher that indicate it works very well for defense from shorter barrels. I intend to chrono this load in the future. I was impressed with the quality of this product and have been with Hornady products in general. My scale does not exceed 110 gr. so I was not able to record a recovered weight.

 

[flop-shank]

Catalog of tests in this thread. Unless otherwise noted, all shots are fired from a range of approximately 5 feet.

#1 Hornady .44 magnum 180 gr. XTP JHP (0981)/5" Smith & Wesson 629

#4, Winchester 12 ga. 2 3/4" 1 oz. rifled slug (X12RS15)/Ithaca 87 20" Deerslayer smoothbore
Federal 12 ga. 2 3/4" 1 oz. low recoil Tru-ball (PB127LRS)/" "
Aguilla 12 ga. 1 3/4" 7/8 oz. low recoil minishell (1C128974)" "

#6, Fiocchi Extrema .380 90 gr. XTP hollowpoint (380XTP)/Kel-Tec P3AT

#7, Speer 135 gr. Short Barrel .357 (23917)/4" Smith & Wesson 586

#12, Hornady Critical Defense .380 90 gr. FTX (90080)/Kel-Tec P3AT

#14, CCI .22 WMR Maxi-Mag TNT 30 gr. Gold Dot (0063)/North American Arms 2" Black Widow
CCI .22 WMR Maxi-Mag Hollow Point +V 30 gr. (0059)/" "
CCI .22 lr. 32 gr. Stinger (0050)/" "
Federal Classic .22 lr. Hyper Velocity 31 gr. (724)/" "
Remington .22 lr. Golden Bullet 36 gr. (1622c)/" "

#27, Speer 135 gr. Short Barrel .38+P (23921)/ 1 7/8" Smith & Wesson 360 PD
Speer 135 gr. Short Barrel .357 (23917)/" "

#31, Remington .357 magnum 125 gr. SJHP (R357M1)/6" 686

#34, Remington .22 lr. Golden Bullet 36 gr. (1622c)/ 1 1/8" North American Arms .22 lr. Mini Revolver

#37, Buffalo Bore .380 +P 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (27c/20)/Kel-Tec P3AT. Be advised .380 +P proved too hot for a P3AT and will destroy the gun in short order!!!!!!!!!!!
Speer .380 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (23606)/Kel-Tec P3AT.

#60, Federal .38 std. pressure 125 gr. Nyclad (P38M) / S&W model 60 3"
Speer .38 +P 135 gr. Short Barrel Gold Dot (23921) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"
Corbon .38 +P 110 gr. DPX (DPX38110/20) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"
Corbon .38 +P 110 gr. JHP (38110/20) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

#67, Hornady .38 spl. std. pressure 110 gr. Critical Defense (90310)/S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

#70, Corbon .380 80 gr. DPX (DPX38080-20)/Kel-tec P3AT
Remington .380 102 gr. Golden Sabre (GS380B)/Kel-tec P3AT

#76, Winchester .44 mag. 210 gr. Silvertip (X44MS)/5" S&W 629
Federal .44 mag. 180 gr. JHP (C44B)/5" S&W 629
Remington .44 mag. 240 gr. SJHP (R44MG3)/5" S&W 629

#79, Magtech .380 First Defense 77 gr. SCHP (FD380A)/Kel-tec P3AT
Double Tap .380 95 gr. Controlled Expansion JHP/Kel-tec P3AT

#82, Corbon .44 magnum 165 gr. JHP (SD44165/20)/5" S&W 629, bare P-G

#84, Corbon .44 magnum 165 gr. JHP (SD44165/20)/5' S&W 629, 4 layer denim/P-G

#96, Federal .357 130 gr. "low recoil" Hydra-Shok (PD357HS2H)/2 1/4" Ruger SP-101
Remington .357 125 gr. SJHP (R357M1)/2 1/4" Taurus 605. 4 layer denim P-G

 

[Hoptob]

Good idea, flop-shank. There is a lot of gelo data out there but it's spread all over the internet and sometimes hard to find. A common reference can be very helpful.

I'll take the first crack and copy test data on Speer 135 gr. 357 mag load. It's 38 special cousin was tested many times but data on 357 mag load is sparse. It comes from Evan Marshall's site - http://www.stoppingpower.net. Along with www.brassfetcher.com, Evan's site is a great resource for gelatin tests results.

Originally posted at link:

10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Speer .357 mag 135 gr GDHP Short Barrel

Testing Platform:
S&W 340 PD

Barrier:
Four Layers of Denim


TEST RESULTS:

Round # 1:
Penetration: 13.375"
Recovered Weight: 133.7 gr.
Expansion*: .562 cal.
Velocity: 980.0 fps

* Expansion measured at widest point.


10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Speer .357 mag 135 gr GDHP Short Barrel

Testing Platform:
S&W 649

Barrier:
Four Layers of Denim


TEST RESULTS:

Round # 1:
Penetration: 16.00"
Recovered Weight: 134.2 gr.
Expansion*: .407 cal.
Velocity: 1002 fps

* Expansion measured at widest point.



10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Speer .357 mag 135 gr GDHP Short Barrel

Testing Platform:
Ruger SP101 2 ¼"

Barrier:
Four Layers of Denim


TEST RESULTS:

Round # 1:
Penetration: 15.00"
Recovered Weight: 136.2 gr.
Expansion*: .551 cal.
Velocity: 1046 fps

* Expansion measured at widest point.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JWR

Mike

 

[flop-shank]

Thanks for your input, Hoptob. Those Speer SB .357 results are consistent with mine. They are posted somewhere in this forum.

I recently tested Winchester 12 ga. 2 3/4" 1 oz. rifled slugs (X12RS15). They proved very accurate in my 20" improved cylinder 870 express and my Ithaca Deerslayer. I felt a P-G test was in order. Since I rely on this load for defense, I wanted to know what type of penetration I was dealing with.

Winchester 12 ga. slug (X12RS15)/Ithaca 87 Deerslayer 20" smoothbore.

Round #1 Bare P-G, 16" pen. 1.083 avg. rec. dia. No significant fragmentation noted. The recovered slug is donut shaped with the inside hole having a diameter of roughly 13/32" diameter. The cardboard and plastic wads were recovered in the main wound channel right behind the slug. The test table, having been badly damaged, then repaired while .44 mag. testing collapsed on one end from the violent expansion of the gel block. It had to be rebuilt.
Numerous 2x4s used in it's construction were split lengthwise and drywall screws sheared off. The gel block, which weighs about 23 lbs. flew about 3' in the air off the test table bounced off the wall of my top secret lab and landed on the floor.

This was the most brutal power I have ever seen in my testing by far.

After this test I wanted to try some lower recoil offerings to see how they compared to Winchester's in Perma-Gel. I tested the Federal 12 ga. Tru-ball low recoil 1 oz. HP slug (PB127LRS) and the Aguila 12 ga. 1 3/4" (no that's not a typo) 7/8 oz. slug. I thought the Aguila might be a useful practice and defense load for my petite wife.

Federal 12 ga. low recoil Tru-ball (PB127LRS)/Ithaca 87 Deerslayer 20" smoothbore.

Round #1 bare P-G, 16 1/2"+ pen. This slug completely penetrated the gel block and my 1" thick fiberglass backstop and was not recovered.

Aguila 1 3/4" 12 ga. slug/Ithaca 87 Deerslayer 20" smoothbore.

Round #1 bare P-G 16 1/2"+ pen. This slug completely penetrated the gel block and 1" thick fiberglass backstop and was not recovered.

Conclusions: In accuracy testing the Winchester load (holes sometimes touching at 50 yds.) was far more accurate than Tru-ball (it was a joke throwing worse than 5" groups at 50 yds.), and I couldn't get the Tru-ball to shoot to POA in my gun. It was printing way high and my rear sight was as far down as it goes. I will say that the Tru-ball was far more comfortable to shoot though. The full power Winchesters are downright brutal out of the light weight hard tail (no rubber recoil pad) Ithaca. After my range work, I have no use for Tru-ball. YMMV.

I also fired Brenneke 12 ga. 2 3/4" K.O. slugs (SL-122KO). These proved as accurate as the Winchesters, fired to the same POA and had less recoil, being about halfway between the Winchesters and low recoil tru-ball. They are also reasonably priced as are the Winchester load. I haven't fired the Brenneke into P-G because I'm planning on sticking with the american product. Brenneke's are made in Germany. They are an excellent product, but not given a clear reason to buy a foreign product, I'll buy american every time. I do think that the wadcutter-like profile of the K.O. slug makes more sense than a traditional foster slug's. More bore contact can only lend itself to accuracy.

The Aguila has yet to be tested for accuracy. I did try cycling that round through my Ithaca and both my 870s. I experienced feeding issues in all guns. In a pump shotgun the stubby Aguila round might be useful as a low recoil chamber round and also might be useful as a low recoil alternative in coach guns. Despite it's funny appearance my gel test above only indicates that it packs the goods to stop a fight, or a deer with careful shot placement.

 

[Hoptob]

Those Speer SB .357 results are consistent with mine. They are posted somewhere in this forum.

Found it - thanks, flop. link

Mike

 

[flop-shank]

That was a fun thread.

Thanks for posting the link. In the pages that follow there are Remington .357 125 gr. SJHP results also. Elsewhere in this forum there are my test results for the Speer .380 90 gr. Gold dot load as well as Buffalo Bore's .380 +P 90 gr. Gold Dot load. Which leads me to a test I did recently.

Fiocchi Extrema .380 90 gr. XTP hollow point.

I recently tested this ammo because I have been looking for something that performs as well as, or better than, Speer .380 Gold dots but at a nonridiculous price (to Speer's credit, while their ammo may be expensive it is top quality and they don't seem to be afflicted by any of the quality control issue that seem to plague the ammunition industry lately). Fiocchi's Extrema line of ammunition is loaded with the Hornady XTP bullet. While I'm not a huge fan of the XTP for self defense applications and questioned how well it would be in a .380, I decided to buy a box and give it the chance to prove itself. My initial impression when I first opened the box was favorable. While I've never been a huge fan of Hornady products, they make beautiful, high quality bullets. These were no exception. Having never bought a Fiocchi product, I was impressed that the quality (right down to the nickel cases) was every bit as high as Speer's. This was good looking ammo and very uniform in it's construction. I fired two rounds in P-G with the results posted below.

Fiocchi Extrema .380 90 gr. XTPHP (380XTP)/Kel-tec P3AT

Round #1 four layers denim/P-G: 16 1/2" pen. This bullet stopped short of completely penetrating the block. It did not expand, but it's nose smashed over into a nasty flat shape on one side (45 degree angle) that was pushing one heck of a front as it tore and tumbled through the P-G. No doubt it would cause more trauma than FMJ. Once it flipped around it continued on like a wadcutter. Tracking was relatively straight.

Round #2 bare P-G: 13 1/4" pen. .477 rec. dia. Nice uniform expansion. No fragmentation was noted and tracking was straight.

Conclusions: While disappointed that I didn't get proper expansion through four layers of denim, I wasn't really unimpressed with the results either, after all .380 is a very marginal caliber with bullets operating not much above minimal expansion thresholds. I was impressed by the results in bare gel. To Fiocchi's credit, I've never tested a standard pressure .380 load that passed with flying colors. My rangework was more revealing than my gel test with this ammo. The recoil was similar to Speer .380, but my gun was not quite as accurate, nor did it function 100%. I don't think it was an issue of quality as the ammunition I tested felt and sounded totally consistent. My Kel-tec just didn't like it. I would, however, recommend trying this ammo to anyone who uses FMJ in their .380 because they are concerned with underpenetration with other brands of hollowpoint ammunition. Had the Fiocchi Extrema been 100% reliable in my Kel-tec I would be using this as a carry load since it was accurate enough for the job, about $22.00 for fifty rounds and manufactured in the United States. Put this one on your short list of good .380 loads.

 

[flop-shank]

Speer .357 magnum 135 gr. Short Barrel Gold Dot JHP (23917)/4" Smith and Wesson 586.

Round #1 bare P-G; 13 1/4" pen., .628" avg. rec. dia.
Expansion was full, uniform and beautiful. The bullet tracked straight with no fragmentation evident.

Conclusions: The impact with the half P-G block was not nearly as violent as R357M1 from a 6" 686, as would be expected with a load advertised as medium power. This load is everything Speer purports it to be, exibiting excellent expansion and penetration from a 1 7/8" snub through four layers of denim and, at the other end of the spectrum, a 4" gun into bare gel. I do not see this load as being as effective as full power .357 loads, but it would by all means still be very capable and is much more shootable. For those looking for a medium power .357 load, it is an excellent choice.

 

[Hunt200]

Did you test the critical defense .380 ammo yet?

 

[Hoptob]

Great info. Thanks much, flop. Good to know that 135 gr. bullet performs so well at high and low speeds. It's likely best projectile for hot 38 spl - mild 357 magnum loads.

The Short Barrel Bullet.

Mike

 

[flop-shank]

Yes, that truly is one of those rare bullets that's so well designed that it really is a standout.

Originally posted by Hunt200:
Did you test the critical defense .380 ammo yet?

No, I haven't. My order has yet to arrive. As soon as I have the opportunity to test and post, I most definately will!

 

[Hunt200]

Thanks!

 

[flop-shank]

Hornady .380 ACP 90 gr. FTX (90080)/Kel-tec P3AT

Round #1 four layers denim/P-G; 16 1/2" pen., no expansion or fragmentation. The bullet appears to have tumbled twice while tracking relatively straight.
Round #2 bare P-G; 12 3/4" pen. .436 avg. rec. dia., rec. wt. 90 gr. Tracking was relatively straight.

Conclusions: This is a good .380 load. I've never tested a std. pressure .380 JHP that didn't have expansion issues and while this one is no different, I would rather have a load that expands part of the time, but always penetrates well, than a load that always expands, but sometimes underpenetrates. Of the tests I've done, or the results I've seen, only three loads fit the first description; the Hornady FTX, Fiocchi Extrema (with nearly identical results to the FTX and featuring the Hornady XTP bullet), and the Speer Gold Dot. All three loads are of nothing but the best quality with premium components including nickeled cases. The Fiocchi is much lower priced and would be my favorite, but my gun feeds that round poorly. I will continue to use Gold Dots because they are proven in my gun and the plated on jacket is a plus if I ever have to shoot through auto glass. The FTX exibited very snappy recoil so I have no doubt it's power is on par with the other loads I like. The Hornady FTX is an excellent choice for someone looking for a .380 load provided it is 100% reliable in their gun reasonably accurate. Hat's off to Hornady for putting out a good one!

 

[Hunt200]

Thanks flop-shank.

 

[flop-shank]

You're most welcome!

CCI .22 WMR Maxi Mag TNT 30 gr. Gold Dot (0063)/North American Arms Black Widow 2"

Round #1; four layers denim/P-G. 9 1/2" pen. .330 avg. rec. dia.

Round #2 bare P-G. 7 3/4" pen. .356 avg. rec. dia.

Both bullets tracked relatively straight with no fragmentation noted.

Conclusions: I would like to see at least 3" more penetration, but the expansion was impressive and reliable. These bullets exibit all the quality and careful design of their bigger brothers. I don't know if I can trust my life to such shallow penetration, but these would be great for varmints.

CCI .22 mag. Maxi-Mag HP+V, 30 gr. (0059)/ North American Arms Black Widow 2"

Round#1, four layers denim/P-G; 17"+ pen.

Round#2, bare P-G; 17"+ pen.

Neither bullet expanded, or exibited weight loss.

CCI .22 lr. 32 gr. Stinger (0050)/NAA Black Widow 2"
bare P-G; 13 1/2" pen.

Federal Classic .22 lr. hyper velocity, 31 gr. (724)/NAA Black Widow 2"
bare P-G; 9 1/4" pen.

Rem. .22 lr. Golden Bullet, 36 gr. (1622c)/NAA Black Widow 2"
bare P-G; 9" pen.

None of the .22 lr. bullets exibited expansion or weight loss.

 

[NiklasP]

Been looking for data on performance of Federal 22Mag 50 grain bullets in gel, etc. They chrono at about 1250 fps from my Ruger Single Six with 4 5/8 inch barrel. Are there such data out there that I have been missing?

Ditto for 32 caliber Speer 95 grain HBWC at 700-800 fps.

Thanks,
Niklas

 

[flop-shank]

Niklas, if that 50 gr. bullet isn't lightly constucted so as to fragment on impact, then I'll guess it's a deep penetrator, even if it expands. That's a very heavy .22 cal. bullet. Perhaps the people on North American Arms forum will know. As for the wadcutter, as a general rule wadcutters penetrate quite deep. I wouldn't worry about underpenetration.

 

[NiklasP]

flop-shank,

My very limited experience with 50 grain Federal 22 Mag indicates that it is not fragile at 1200 fps, but expands nicely. No bullets recovered from shooting through "2X4"s, so no info about weight loss. Size of entry hole into 2nd board indicates expansion to 32-38 caliber.

Niklas

 

[gatorhugger]

Originally posted by flop-shank:
Hornady .380 ACP 90 gr. FTX (90080)/Kel-tec P3AT

Round #1 four layers denim/P-G; 16 1/2" pen., no expansion or fragmentation. The bullet appears to have tumbled twice while tracking relatively straight.
Round #2 bare P-G; 12 3/4" pen. .436 avg. rec. dia., rec. wt. 90 gr. Tracking was relatively straight.

Conclusions: This is a good .380 load. I've never tested a std. pressure .380 JHP that didn't have expansion issues and while this one is no different, I would rather have a load that expands part of the time, but always penetrates well, than a load that always expands, but sometimes underpenetrates. Of the tests I've done, or the results I've seen, only three loads fit the first description; the Hornady FTX, Fiocchi Extrema (with nearly identical results to the FTX and featuring the Hornady XTP bullet), and the Speer Gold Dot. All three loads are of nothing but the best quality with premium components including nickeled cases. The Fiocchi is much lower priced and would be my favorite, but my gun feeds that round poorly. I will continue to use Gold Dots because they are proven in my gun and the plated on jacket is a plus if I ever have to shoot through auto glass. The FTX exibited very snappy recoil so I have no doubt it's power is on par with the other loads I like. The Hornady FTX is an excellent choice for someone looking for a .380 load provided it is 100% reliable in their gun reasonably accurate. Hat's off to Hornady for putting out a good one!

Ok, I was with you for a while. You have never tested 380's that didn't have expansion issues? What type of issues? What the heck have you been testing? Golden Sabers are certainly standard pressure.Nothing "hot" about them.
Shoot a Golden Saber into your jello and tell me it doesn't expand huge for a 380. and they penetrate just fine and come out with a nice chunk of 102 grain lead. No they are not 9mm and will not penetrate to FBI requirements, but they will go 10 inches and mushroom out every single time. What more do you want from a 380? They certainly don't have expansion issues.
Dpx normally expands as well but doesn't have the penetration of the sabers.
So test the Golden Sabers, they will open your eyes to the best 380 round.

 

[flop-shank]

Gatorhugger, I have never tested a standard pressure .380 that expanded properly through four layers of denim/Perma-Gel and bare Perma-Gel. So far I have tested the Speer Gold Dot, Hornady FTX, Fiocchi Extrema and also Buffalo Bore's .380 +P Gold Dot (which is a great expander and penetrator, but beat the snot out of my P3AT). I have seen .380 Golden Sabre 10% gelatin results on the net, but have not personally tested that load (although I have been thinking about it). In the two Golden Sabre tests I've seen, that bullet never penetrated more than 9 1/2" IIRC, and yes I do recall .60" or so expansion. I prefer more penetration than that. If you are comfortable with that amount that's your decision. Based on what I've read, it appears that Remington's engineers missed what Hornady's and Speer's didn't: Controlling the expansion of a .380 bullet so that it only expands to around .45" will put on the brakes some, but still allow deep penetration. FWIW, Speer's .380 Gold Dot did well through four layers of denim, expanding to .442" and penetrating 13" deep. That bullet actually ran into trouble in bare P-G with only one petal folding out and I suspect it was a fluke. The two loads utilizing Hornady bullets had problems with heavy cloth.

I will say that I am impressed with the variety of .380 loads available today and the level of effort the ammo makers have put into that caliber.

I'll probably see my concealed carry instructor today. I know he carries .380 Golden Sabres, so I'll see if I can score a couple rounds for a test. I have to filter and remold my P-G this weekend, so don't expect to see results posted for several days it I get the freebie Golden Sabres.

 

[gatorhugger]

Test the sabers before you make a decision on them.
I am certainly no expert on bullet testing.
However, I have done extensive 380 testing in meat.
www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209241627/0
The owner of buffalo bore also sent me freebies to test in their lineup including the hard casts and the Buffalo gold dots.
Every test I did, Sabers came up on top.

Of course as you mentioned it's always a trade off between expansion and penetration in a 380.
My conclusions are if you want penetration go with a FMJ, standard pressure. They will easily go through 16 inches of meat.
If you want a balance with expansion, go with the Sabers.
The results are nothing short of impressive with this particular bullet.
In fact in one test the saber 380 performed almost indentical to a 9mm HST 124 +P
Unlike gold dots, they will also break bones and keep on going.
When you recover that saber 380 and feel the heft compared to the 90 grainers, see the expansion and penetration, it's the top performer out there. It really performs almost like a bridge between the 80-90 grain premium 380's and the lighter 9mm's.

The buffalos are good stuff, but are pushing the envelope. The JHP's fragment on hitting heavy bone. They do create a pretty impressive entrance wound however and as you mentioned have a bit of "snap" to them. I would still carry them if I had enough practice to control follow up shots.

Anyway just my two cents. Sabers come out on top if you want expansion and penetration in a 380. DPX failed miserably in penetration, they parachute out almost immediately and will penetrate 6 inches of meat. NOT ENOUGH!
I think 10 inches for the saber in meat is sufficient for a 380 if we want to tradeoff some penetration. But that is a personal choice.

Not contradicting your testing, there are thousands of tests, and yours is as valid as anyones. But you haven't tested the sabers and I have extensive testing experience with primarly the 380 bullet, and Sabers certainly have no expansion issues. Whether 10 inches is enough penetration, is for each to decide. It is for me. They have low recoil, a round design with a low sloped shoulder for excellent feeding, low muzzle flash, will keep traveling through small bone and expand reliably in any water/tissue medium.
Like you said, the tradeoff is always penetration.