Perma-Gel test results

[flop-shank]

Where did you notice the possible problem in your Keltec?

It was after firing the fifth, or sixth round of the first fully loaded magazine. The takedown pin was sticking halfway out the left side of the gun. One more shot would have severely damaged the gun as the pin was only supported on one side of the frame/aluminum chassis. There were several areas inside the chassis that then had to be cleaned up with a file and the gun had to be fired again before the slide moved normally when being drawn back to the rear.

Do you have any data on how much hotter the BB .380 rounds are loaded? Are they still within SAAMI specs?

I don't think there is a SAAMI spec for .380 +P and can't tell you the velocity difference between BB+P and Speer Gold Dot, but there is definately a difference in felt recoil and bullet performance. I think BB has chrono data on their website and you could chrono your gun, or find someone else's data ( www.stoppingpower.net , Speed Trap forum?) and make a SWAG.

 

[BigRich315]

Rich, if you reload, and aren't adverse to carrying reloads, I can give you my Gold Dot clone recipe.

Flop-Shank, I don't reload currently but plan to start. That time was supposed to be now but a financial setback has postponed it once again.

I haven't been too impressed by most of the factory .380 loads so have planned to create a handload, and a Gold Dot clone seems just the place to start. It's the best I've seen. When I think I know what I'm doing I'll study a little more and maybe take you up on the offer. Thank you.

 

[conchmariner]

It was after firing the fifth, or sixth round of the first fully loaded magazine. The takedown pin was sticking halfway out the left side of the gun. One more shot would have severely damaged the gun as the pin was only supported on one side of the frame/aluminum chassis. There were several areas inside the chassis that then had to be cleaned up with a file and the gun had to be fired again before the slide moved normally when being drawn back to the rear.

I don't think there is a SAAMI spec for .380 +P and can't tell you the velocity difference between BB+P and Speer Gold Dot, but there is definately a difference in felt recoil and bullet performance. I think BB has chrono data on their website and you could chrono your gun, or find someone else's data ( www.stoppingpower.net , Speed Trap forum?) and make a SWAG.

Did you contact Keltec about the problem? Supposedly they are OK with BB. If that's the case, maybe they should know about your experience.

You're right about no SAAMI spec for .380+P. I think SAAMI is 21,500 psi, and +P normally is plus 10 pct for other calibers.

BTW I emailed BB, and they replied that their .380 ammo should really only be used for carry after verifying that it cycles and POA/POI relationship in a particular MODERN .380 gun ie not for plinking (sort of obvious given the price).

 

[flop-shank]

I haven't contacted Kel-tec, but will heed your advice and give them a call.

 

[conchmariner]

I finally tried one round of BB .380 95 gr FMJ today in my MDE. The other five rounds were S&B 92 gr FMJ. The BB round did have slightly more recoil, but nothing drastic. It did seem to shoot pretty close to POA at 5 yards.

 

[flop-shank]

Conchmariner, I had forgotten that I had chronoed a single round of Speer .380 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (23606) and Buffalo Bore .380+P 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (27c/20) from my P3AT before my near disaster during reliability testing. The numbers are:

Speer; 994 fps.

Buffalo Bore; 1084 fps.

That's a nice and very useable boost in velocity.

I also contacted Kel-tec the other day, per your suggestion, and made them aware of my experience with Buffalo Bore +P ammo.

 

[conchmariner]

Those are some pretty good numbers from a small gun like that. I don't have a chrono, so I don't know what I'm getting out of the MDE which has a 2.2 inch barrel. The Keltec barrel is a bit longer, so I guess you'll get higher velocity out of any given load than I would.

I'd be interested to hear what Keltec has to say about your experience with BB ammo.

 

[flop-shank]

Remember, each gun is a law unto itself, so you might get more velocity (or way less) from your shorter barrel.

I left K-T my phone number, but a phony e-mail. So far, no reply.

 

[BigRich315]

Based on your findings here, F-S, I've assembled some .380 Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Defence FTX, and threw in Cor-Bon DPX to see what my P3AT likes (and also was gifted a box of Rem. Golden Saber). It already likes Double Tap but it seems a bit hot, not as bad as your Buffalo Bore though.

I was impressed with the DPX in .40, but I haven't found much about the .380 version. I expect it would penetrate very well and expand the same. Do you have any thoughts/knowledge about the round?

 

[flop-shank]

Rich, I believe that DPX was tested at www.stoppingpower.net (do a search in the test bed forum)and www.goldenloki.com . My recollection is that it's a shallow penetrator getting between 8" - 10". The Barnes X bullet may be limited in it's ability in .380 because it's all copper construction may dictate that it give up weigh to maintain adequate case capacity, or sacrifice case capacity itself in order to maintain a decent weight (does such a thing exist in .380? ). Neither choice will help penetration. I will say that in all fairness, I haven't tested DPX myself. My hunch is that it will expand even through very heavy clothing. I would prefer to use, in order of favorite to least favorite, Gold Dots, then Critical Defense, then DPX based on what I presently know. I would try all three and feed the gun the best load it likes.

 

[BigRich315]

First, TYVM for such a quick reponse!

Flop-shank, that does make alot of sense. The DPX are seated waaaaaay deep and I'd expect the powder they have room for might get the 80gr bullet moving, but the type of powder needed won't be able to maintain that energy.

I have searched StoppingPower and found DPX tested in everything from 9mm to .30 Carbine to 7.62X39, but no .380 unfortunately. I forgot about Golden Loki. They show a beautifully expanded bullet that was recovered just short of 11". The FTX aren't much better, but the GD performed well, echoing your results. (Incidentally, my freebie Golden Saber's test no better than ball, no wonder they were given away)

I had forgotten about the Hornady ammo when it showed up out of the blue from backorder. I have already concluded to use the GD, but I'll give them a try. The Double Tap I have loaded now function perfectly and are accurate, but I think they are punishing my Kel-Tec a bit too much. Hopefully it'll like the taste of "Gold."

 

[flop-shank]

It's there, bro.

I used the tags ".380 DPX" to do a search in the test bed forum only at www.stoppingpower.net .

The threads I saw that were of interest were, Perma-Gel Tests and Corbon .380 80gr. DPX.

 

[BigRich315]

So knee, hip, and now the eyes are going. For a young guy I'm falling apart pretty fast! I'm not sure how I missed those.

Those are some pretty dismal numbers. As discussed many times before, when you get .7" expansion in a .380 it really puts on the brakes. The biggest problem I'm seeing is inconsistent numbers. One test shows .65" expansion and 10" penetration. Another shows .732" expansion and only 6.75" penetration in the same medium.

.380 is just not the caliber for DPX.

 

[flop-shank]

Rich, while Perma-Gel and 10% gel aren't the same medium, they should give close enough results for a fair enough comparison. Even 10% gel varies a bit. I was thinking about the differing test results of DPX today, so I decided to see if the shallow results were the earliest. I was suspicious that the cats at Barnes and Corbon had tweeked the load. As it turns out the deeper penetrating test results in the Perma-Gel thread on Marshall's forum did come later and the second post is by none other than Mike Shovel from Corbon. He posted that yes, the ammo had been changed from early production so as to get better penetration without increasing pressure. I would look to more recent results than the original .380 DPX thread for a good idea of what one can expect from current production DPX. I'm glad you brought this up, because current production DPX would probably be the most reliable expander in that caliber. If the penetration is better than 10" it would be one of the best .380 defensive loads IMO.

 

[BigRich315]

Flop-shank, I just went back and looked both posts. It's good to know that Cor-Bon has paid some attention to improving this round. 10" is not horrible, especially with a .65" hole, though I'd like to see a little more out of it. By now, 3 years later, it might be there. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I may have to invest in a block of Perma-Gel and try out the newest load.

DPX is beginning to look just as impressive as Gold Dot across the board (I've said before that numbers show GD is a good choice in ANY caliber). I hope they keep improving.

 

[pps]

Flop, have you tested the r357m2 (158grain sjhp)?

It's funny, your perma gel results with the r357m1, in terms of depth and penetration, are almost identical to what I see with firing into a rubber mulch bullet trap. (12-14 inches regardless of denim or no denim in front of the target)

For the 158gr @ 1250fps I've been getting between 15 and 18 inches of penetration and a little more than .500" of expansion. I was just curious to see how my cheap/reusable mulch compares as a test media to the perma gel.

 

[flop-shank]

PPS, I have absolutely no idea how rubber mulch combares to Perma-Gel. You might want to compare any test results you have to 10% gel and P-G results for various loads.

I have never tested R357M2, even though I think it's a super cool load.

 

[flop-shank]

Flop-shank, I just went back and looked both posts. It's good to know that Cor-Bon has paid some attention to improving this round. 10" is not horrible, especially with a .65" hole, though I'd like to see a little more out of it. By now, 3 years later, it might be there. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I may have to invest in a block of Perma-Gel and try out the newest load.

DPX is beginning to look just as impressive as Gold Dot across the board (I've said before that numbers show GD is a good choice in ANY caliber). I hope they keep improving.

Rich, thank you for making me revisit .380 DPX. My whole opinion on that load is different than it was a few days ago. I wouldn't have taken a second look were it not for your inquery.

DPX and Gold Dot are both cutting edge and, no doubt some great minds are behind both.

If you invest in a block of P-G you will get an incredible education in ammunition. Just like a chrono, P-G tells one just what his ammo is doing from his gun, how ammo behaves in general, and gives a great medium for comparing one's own test results to 10% gel results found online, as well as a great way to see which load works best when accuracy, reliability and power are comparable.

P-G was invented by Dr. Darryl Amick, who also invented Hevi-Shot. I've talked to him on the phone when I had questions about P-G. He's a very friendly, approachable, and helpful guy. No doubt he's a total gun crank not unlike any number of us. He's actually lurked here as he was interested in what was being done with and discussed about his product. It's a real shame more people don't use the stuff. It's not much more expensive than an entry level chrono.

 

[pps]

PPS, I have absolutely no idea how rubber mulch combares to Perma-Gel. You might want to compare any test results you have to 10% gel and P-G results for various loads.

I have never tested R357M2, even though I think it's a super cool load.

I was just curious if you had any P-G results for that round. I have looked at my bullets performance in the rubber mulch compared to published results in 10% ballistics gel and it's darn close.

 

[flop-shank]

Some .38s

I had previously put these results elsewhere in the ammo forum. I don't know if they are still around, or lost to the sands of time, but I figured that I might as well put them in the P-G thread and thus do something meaningful and give the thread a bump at the same time.

Federal .38 spl. std. pressure 125 gr. Nyclad (P38M) / 3" S&W model 60

Round #1 4 layer denim/P-G, 15 1/2"+, .412 avg. rec. dia.

This bullet expanded poorly, but expand it did, and that's impressive from a std. pressure .38 through heavy cloth. The recovered bullet is flared not unlike the end of a trumpet. It took a curved path through the gel block, exited the side at 15 1/2" and was recovered from the lab floor. Although I tested this load from a 3" gun, my hunch is that from a 2" barrel through heavy cloth expansion would be iffy. I am, however, guessing that this load would be a reasonably reliable expander from a 2" gun during t-shirt weather.

Speer .38+P Short Barrel 135 gr. Gold Dot (23921) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

Round #1 bare P-G, 14" pen., .572 avg. rec. dia.
Round #2 4 layer denim/P-G, 17 1/2" pen., no expansion

round #2 was right on it's expansion threshold and the prestressed lines inside the hollow cavity are visible, but it just didn't quite "pop". It did, however, tumble base forward and behave like a wadcutter as it penetrated very deeply. Other online tests I've seen show expansion through four layer denim.

Corbon .38+P 110 gr. DPX (DPX38110/20) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

Round#1 4 layer denim/P-G 12.75" pen., .620 avg. rec. dia.

Who says 110s can't penetrate nicely? Here we see where bullet design is brought to bear. When the Barnes X bullet expands, it sprouts sharp claws that extend out. Due to having open space between the "claws" the bullet doesn't "hit the brakes" as hard as a traditional mushroom would, thus allowing more penetration.

Corbon 110 gr. JHP (38110/20) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

Round#1 4 layers denim/P-G 16" pen., .590 avg. rec. dia.

Another deep penetrating 110 grainer. These are loaded very hot. No fragmentation is noted.

Hornady .38 Critical Defense is coming soon!