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Precisely, my friend. One never knows.
"some of the best deals I ever made was deals I never made"
( my old daddy)
Pinto RM gavel price
- Thread starter Dan M
- Start date
Precisely, my friend. One never knows.
"some of the best deals I ever made was deals I never made"
( my old daddy)
rburg: a very clear look there, Thanks Dick.
At the moment, I'm executor of an estate which includes some collectable and common long guns. I could take them all at once to a gun show, dump them on a seller for wholesale, or get a table and sell them "retail". Instead, I have decided to hang on to, and sell the arms individually to those who seek each one particularly, to hopefully generate the most money for the heirs, and supply a gun to someone who wants it specifically. We'll see how that works.
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(I apologise for thread drift)
At the moment, I'm executor of an estate which includes some collectable and common long guns. I could take them all at once to a gun show, dump them on a seller for wholesale, or get a table and sell them "retail". Instead, I have decided to hang on to, and sell the arms individually to those who seek each one particularly, to hopefully generate the most money for the heirs, and supply a gun to someone who wants it specifically. We'll see how that works.
.
(I apologise for thread drift)
beagleye
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That's an interesting post Dick. Thanks.
I think a threshold has been crossed with collectable guns. I thinks it's getting clearer every day that the way these guns were made is gone, not coming back. And the internet is spreading the word and images, making them seem within reach of us all. I never would have gotten the bug without the internet.
I think a threshold has been crossed with collectable guns. I thinks it's getting clearer every day that the way these guns were made is gone, not coming back. And the internet is spreading the word and images, making them seem within reach of us all. I never would have gotten the bug without the internet.
wlp624
Member
Excellent musings by Dick Burg, very insightful, especially the part about only having the resources to acquire such a gun after a lifetime's combination of work, planning and luck.
And 'beagleye' is exactly right about the internet. In addition to Smith & Wessons, I also collect rare books, and when the internet first came along, the book shop owners resented it for the dramatic changes it wrought in the trade. Now they couldn't survive without it, and I can instantly purchase beautiful volumes from around the world.
And 'beagleye' is exactly right about the internet. In addition to Smith & Wessons, I also collect rare books, and when the internet first came along, the book shop owners resented it for the dramatic changes it wrought in the trade. Now they couldn't survive without it, and I can instantly purchase beautiful volumes from around the world.
It's a beautiful gun, but every time I see a Pinto like that a little voice in the back of my head keeps whispering "Keep looking...somewhere out there is a nickel Reg. Mag. with a blue cylinder".
Bob
Bob
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
I think the pinto RM is a fabulous gun and worth whatever price it can bring. I also think James Julia shows us how lazy/lackadaisical an auction house can become once they get the consignment. If they had posted tight shots as Lee showed it might have gone higher.
Dick Burg has the same thoughts about dispersal many of us have. I have a very intelligent wife who is a collector herself. She is also not a hoplophobe. I know she wouldn't call the sheriff and ask him to get rid of the guns for her. She has some idea of the total value in the safes. I've already warned her about the guy who will ring the doorbell before I'm cold. Beyond that, I don't have a plan.
Dick Burg has the same thoughts about dispersal many of us have. I have a very intelligent wife who is a collector herself. She is also not a hoplophobe. I know she wouldn't call the sheriff and ask him to get rid of the guns for her. She has some idea of the total value in the safes. I've already warned her about the guy who will ring the doorbell before I'm cold. Beyond that, I don't have a plan.
wlp624
Member
Simple, I made out a list of trusted dealers in both guns and rare books, and told her to invite them all to come over and bid against each other for my collections.
beagleye
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A quick story regarding dispersing collections: A close relative passed recently. He was a world class long range muzzle loader, he had refined taste, he was a collector of many things including Smith and Wesson revolvers, but his prize was his 19th century Rigby rifle. After he passed a reputable nearby auction house was chosen to sell his collection. The total from his guns exceeding 70 grand, his Rigby alone bought 20. Everyone accepted that as a windfall for his widow and was happy. Some months later after some closet cleaning I was given a nice coat, a fancy european sporting jacket with many pockets. Eventually my fingers happened upon a slip of paper in one of the more remote pockets. It was a receipt for a Rigby rifle for the sum of 90 thousand pounds.
WOW.....................
gjamison
Member
Let's clear this up. This RM was sold at Amoskeag Auction not James Julia. If you have ever looked at a Julia catalog you would have never made that statement. I have been to a couple of Julia auctions in the past and they are anything but lazy or lackadaisical.
One more thing Amoskeag and Julia are 2 of the best at there business!!!
Discussing a S&W in this price range is like discussing whether a Bugatti Veyron is worth $2.5MM. For the vast majority, it is a vicarious experience. We enjoy talking about it just as we enjoy the "what if-" of the PowerBall lottery. Obviously, there are some who can realistically purchase both the Smith and the Bugatti or they wouldn't sell.
In the case of the Veyron, a good number seem to end up being wrapped around a sign post by a teenage rock star or a rapper. Sure hope that isn't the fate of this beauty but I doubt that any of us will see it lying on the concrete table at the gun range.
Bob
In the case of the Veyron, a good number seem to end up being wrapped around a sign post by a teenage rock star or a rapper. Sure hope that isn't the fate of this beauty but I doubt that any of us will see it lying on the concrete table at the gun range.
Bob
wlp624
Member
True enough, so let's hope that when this beauty shows up here in the flesh/steel, it will be in a new thread. This one is fine for airing out all the varied opinions about value and logic and motivation, but the gun itself deserves a fresh venue devoted to its inherent beauty and rarity.
rburg
Member
Discussing a S&W in this price range is like discussing whether a Bugatti Veyron is worth $2.5MM. For the vast majority, it is a vicarious experience. We enjoy talking about it just as we enjoy the "what if-" of the PowerBall lottery. Obviously, there are some who can realistically purchase both the Smith and the Bugatti or they wouldn't sell.
In the case of the Veyron, a good number seem to end up being wrapped around a sign post by a teenage rock star or a rapper. Sure hope that isn't the fate of this beauty but I doubt that any of us will see it lying on the concrete table at the gun range.
Bob
I accept your analysis as being basically true. But I'm not sure it is. I agree with you because we read on a weekly basis about some poster who just can't bring himself to lay down the coins to buy a $600 beauty. In most cases its a general production firearm, one of thousands almost identical to it. I have no idea if its poverty, or maybe common sense and the desire to buy his wife a new dining room instead. Maybe the guilt if he spent that money on "himself".
We don't all view things with those glasses. Buying a gun that you could shoot but honestly don't plan on is a different matter. None of us have much of a clue about the next guys finances. Well, except we see some outstanding examples time after time by the same guys.
Another view. In todays mail we received a monthly statement from Stan Morgan and Barney Smith. And I looked at the portfolio total and the monthly change. Pretty sorry. Just like its been this entire year. If I draw any out of that account, I'll be relegated to paying the IRS a big chunk of it because it was pre tax dollars. And from that one account, I could have bought 8 of those fine revolvers. I know, IRAs generally can't own handguns. But there is little doubt in my mind that had we been able to when we made the initial contributions to it, the handguns would have been worth a bunch more today.
And it wouldn't require all the financial expertise of their experts to make the decisions. My bet being that if 8 or 10 years ago I'd just bought the highest priced S&Ws that David Carroll or Lee had on their tables, oiled them real good and salted them away (you salt pork bellies, not blue guns), the value today would be significantly higher than the stock market prices we're seeing.
I still read the WSJ and all the articles about the FED pumping the economy and printing money as fast as they can. It comes to mind that just maybe they aren't printing Pintos or engraved examples of RMs these days.
I know I'd be wrong to say everyone here could buy that gun if they really wanted to. But I'm guessing a huge number could if they put their mind to it. They're just too conservative or beaten down to do it. Many of us purchase a new car or truck every so often for at least that much. Yet because its a luxury we hesitate. And knowing good and well the car or truck will be worth just a tiny fraction of what we paid a decade into the future. Might be because we drive the car or truck and put the gun away.
Then I think I'm not going to live forever. I can hold a nice gun in my hand. The brokerage statement is just ink on paper, mostly fiction.
Then to add to the confusion, a question. Jim Fisher, have you fired your short barrelled 3rd model target? Yours is much nicer than mine, but I've fired mine (yes, I cleaned it as best as an old man can.)
Guns that nice cry to be taken outside one time, just so you can say you did. And laugh at those who don't believe you. I'm going to guess the difference we're talking about is the reason we purchase and investment grade gun. Those guns almost always increase in value, usually well beyond the rate of inflation. Surely well beyond a shooter grade gun can be expected to do.
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Dick,
I can't disagree with you about the value increase in fine arms. I'm sure that you and I are joined by all here that, when it comes time to divest ourselves of our collections, we will be proven to be oracles. But, having said that, I can't honestly say that in the 60+ years I've been doing this, I have ever bought a gun with the primary reason being to make money off of it.
Since you have introduced the stock market into my comparison of guns and cars, I will respond that a major consideration in investments of any kind is DIVERSIFICATION. Our portfolio might allow us to own a share of Berkshire Hathaway which would put us in pretty rare company. For the same investment, we might acquire a very large number of Vanguard mutual funds. Even acknowledging that old Warren's Berkshire jumped almost 50% last quarter, a prudent investor still would not put all of his resources in one single investment. The likelihood of the Vanguards ever increasing by that percentage in a quarter is pretty slim...the likelihood that it will fall that much is equally slim. Another factor which always should be considered in investment is the MARKETABILITY of the product. Getting back to the firearms market, when it comes time to sell, the market for 28 one thousand dollar guns is significantly larger than the market for one 28 thousand dollar gun.
We can't predict what the market will do. Governments say that they try to contain inflation in a manageable range. But occasionally they fail and they fail dramatically. The classic example is WWI Germany. In 1917, one US dollar was worth 4.2 German marks. In 1923, one US dollar was worth 4.2 Trillion German marks. If that should happen again we would see Victories with sawed off barrels, bored out cylinders, and bad chrome selling for about what that pinto Magnum sold for and the Magnum would bring about what today's Veyron brings.
I haven't even addressed the possibility of accidental damage occurring to our firearm collection. It doesn't take much of a "ding" to drop the value of a thousand dollar gun several hundred dollars. The same damage to the subject gun could easily take it back to the original auction estimate.
Bob
I can't disagree with you about the value increase in fine arms. I'm sure that you and I are joined by all here that, when it comes time to divest ourselves of our collections, we will be proven to be oracles. But, having said that, I can't honestly say that in the 60+ years I've been doing this, I have ever bought a gun with the primary reason being to make money off of it.
Since you have introduced the stock market into my comparison of guns and cars, I will respond that a major consideration in investments of any kind is DIVERSIFICATION. Our portfolio might allow us to own a share of Berkshire Hathaway which would put us in pretty rare company. For the same investment, we might acquire a very large number of Vanguard mutual funds. Even acknowledging that old Warren's Berkshire jumped almost 50% last quarter, a prudent investor still would not put all of his resources in one single investment. The likelihood of the Vanguards ever increasing by that percentage in a quarter is pretty slim...the likelihood that it will fall that much is equally slim. Another factor which always should be considered in investment is the MARKETABILITY of the product. Getting back to the firearms market, when it comes time to sell, the market for 28 one thousand dollar guns is significantly larger than the market for one 28 thousand dollar gun.
We can't predict what the market will do. Governments say that they try to contain inflation in a manageable range. But occasionally they fail and they fail dramatically. The classic example is WWI Germany. In 1917, one US dollar was worth 4.2 German marks. In 1923, one US dollar was worth 4.2 Trillion German marks. If that should happen again we would see Victories with sawed off barrels, bored out cylinders, and bad chrome selling for about what that pinto Magnum sold for and the Magnum would bring about what today's Veyron brings.
I haven't even addressed the possibility of accidental damage occurring to our firearm collection. It doesn't take much of a "ding" to drop the value of a thousand dollar gun several hundred dollars. The same damage to the subject gun could easily take it back to the original auction estimate.
Bob
bmg60
Member
Dick Burg
I haven't shot the 4 inch 3rd model target yet but it on the list to do that.
The guns that I have shot this year are as follows: Not all of them are mine
but my wife and I had the chance to shoot them.
There is a thread on this fourm on shooting the McGivern Guns.
Judy and I were able to shoot some great guns this summer.
1. Sheeter Skeltons model 25 in 45 colt 4 inch barrel.
2. Elmer Keiths 38/44 outdoorsman and we shot it at 400 Yards Like he did
3. Registered Magnum with a peep sight one of 5 made.
4. K-38 Shipped to Ed McGivern in 1932.
5. K-22 shipped to Ed McGivern in 1937.
Dick Next year I will bring the 4 inch Target but you will have to show up with the other 4 inch and the 44 Transition. Deal.
Jim Fisher
I haven't shot the 4 inch 3rd model target yet but it on the list to do that.
The guns that I have shot this year are as follows: Not all of them are mine
but my wife and I had the chance to shoot them.
There is a thread on this fourm on shooting the McGivern Guns.
Judy and I were able to shoot some great guns this summer.
1. Sheeter Skeltons model 25 in 45 colt 4 inch barrel.
2. Elmer Keiths 38/44 outdoorsman and we shot it at 400 Yards Like he did
3. Registered Magnum with a peep sight one of 5 made.
4. K-38 Shipped to Ed McGivern in 1932.
5. K-22 shipped to Ed McGivern in 1937.
Dick Next year I will bring the 4 inch Target but you will have to show up with the other 4 inch and the 44 Transition. Deal.
Jim Fisher
dacoontz
Member
If I could, I would have cashed out my pension and traded the cash for that gun. I feel pretty confident to say that by the time I retire that RM will be worth more than my projected pension estimate. Plus it would have looked a lot better displayed at my home rather than my quarterly pension statement framed and hung on my wall.
This discussion makes me wonder what the oil tycoon with the 10,000 acre ranch where my dad works as a care taker, has in his gun room, if he has one. Guys like him spend that kind of money without blinking an eye. He has the resources to make a purchase like this and when the risk is next to none than it really is a no-brainer. I'm sure he has people that would have advised him of that for a small amount of money that he could certainly make up almost immediately. He's a generous guy and values my father's hard work so I have no problem with him spending his money how he pleases. I'm sure it doesn't come without some burden to carry. It's just the reality of things and all okay by me. I'm just glad the gun came to light for a moment to enjoy. I've saved the pics to my laptop and I'm sure it won't be the last time I look at them.
This discussion makes me wonder what the oil tycoon with the 10,000 acre ranch where my dad works as a care taker, has in his gun room, if he has one. Guys like him spend that kind of money without blinking an eye. He has the resources to make a purchase like this and when the risk is next to none than it really is a no-brainer. I'm sure he has people that would have advised him of that for a small amount of money that he could certainly make up almost immediately. He's a generous guy and values my father's hard work so I have no problem with him spending his money how he pleases. I'm sure it doesn't come without some burden to carry. It's just the reality of things and all okay by me. I'm just glad the gun came to light for a moment to enjoy. I've saved the pics to my laptop and I'm sure it won't be the last time I look at them.
I look on here occasionally and really enjoy looking at he wonderful S&W's.
I wondered if this gun has passed the scrutiny of all you collectors, since it wasn't mentioned in the comments. Since fakery is a real science these days and has been for a long time I was curious about it.
The mention of the auction houses as being beyond reproach I thought was interesting. You might want to go to Rimfire Central and check out the sticky by "two bit" on the faked Winchester 61's that have come up at some of the fancy auction houses that were mentioned here. One has to wonder how much they actually know about some of these. Not trying to pick a fight, just sayin.
The amount of knowledge you fellers have is totally amazing, and it would take years to acquire. I really enjoy looking at those fine S&W's.
Okay, It's an RM. So, I'm wondering is it really worth all that much money? And if so, why? I'm not the connoisseur of you folks with more knowledge than I, but to me it isn't worth the money. Please do remember I'm not a fan of flash. Agreed I don't know what there is about this revolver which makes it worth so much, and I may never really understand or appreciate those facets, but perhaps one of you would be so good as to enlighten me and others.
Read this thread about this one-of-a-kind RM and the provenance is pretty dang strong...
I love this Registered Magnum 8 3/8" Pinto
Even if it generated much more $s than you would pay, I think that you can appreciate a few more photos and the historical correspondence that went with the gun.
Having read all the paperwork and everyone's comments I still don't see the value. One of a kind okay to me that up's the value by five k, then the provenience up's the value by we'll say five k, and I'm still looking at 12-15 k for the piece. Let's not forget it sold for $60.00 when new. Yup, that was a lot of money then, still it sold for what S&W valued it. 24 k plus auction surcharges, WOW!!!!!
Did I miss the ring around the cylinder the first time I looked? Might have. Am I the only one? Might be.
Did I miss the ring around the cylinder the first time I looked? Might have. Am I the only one? Might be.
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Read this thread about this one-of-a-kind RM and the provenance is pretty dang strong...
I love this Registered Magnum 8 3/8" Pinto
Even if it generated much more $s than you would pay, I think that you can appreciate a few more photos and the historical correspondence that went with the gun.
Very interesting reading. Sure looks correct to me and if Roy Jinks thinks its ok, it probably is. I'd sure be proud to own it. Thanks for the information.
Daisyman
dacoontz
Member
Good luck finding one at this price with any percentage of authenticity for that finish. I doubt the guy that owns it even cares what any of us think anyhow. As I alluded to above, doubt the difference in your estimate versus what it was valued at when it was recently purchased is of much consequence to the new owner. You have to appreciate it for what it's worth. I don't get the point of trying to devalue it. It's not like it's for sale.
Doubt guys bidding that kind of money missed any details about the gun. They didn't arrive at money like that because they were stupid.
I apologize if I am coming across kurt, maybe too much champagne.
Have to say, RIP to the OP (Dan M). Good man was he.
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S&W's records verify the .357 Magnum as being absolutely correct. It is a "one of a kind" revolver and worth whatever a collector is willing to pay to add it to his or her collection.
Bill Cross
S&WCA and S&WHF
Bill Cross
S&WCA and S&WHF
Amen. I too miss Dan M. He was a good friend and fun to be around.
margethatcher
Member
"If you gotta ask, you'll never know".- Just my two cents.
