Please help identify this gun!

[boertiger]

Hello all,
New user here so apologies for any ignorance. I recently bought a .38 Special hand ejector in an auction on gunbroker.com - I'm relatively new to the world of handguns and should probably have researched it more, but it seemed like a great deal! The seller didn't provide too much details about it, though, besides photos, some details about its condition, and its serial number (65xxx).

Based on the serial number ranges that I've seen here and elsewhere on the web, as well as the "US Service CTG'S" on the barrel, I figure it was probably first shipped around 1906, making it likely that it was a Model 1905 no change - which is supported by the fact that it is a 5-screw! However, it has a round butt, which I have seen people say indicates that it is a Model 1902. I am struggling to reconcile the 5 screws with the round butt. Any ideas which gun this would be? Excited to examine it more closely when it arrives.

 

[Hondo44]

It's a K frame Hand Ejector 1st known as the M&P (Military and Police) which became the Model 10 in 1957.

The year model is a bone of contention between collectors so you can pick a side or call it either. There are 4 screw and 5 screw models with round butts.

Do a search here in this forum and you can read the logic arguments of both sides.

 

[boertiger]

Thanks Jim - I appreciate it. Looking into the forums here it definitely seems like a tough call as to what to call it! Hopefully it'll be a fun shooter regardless.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

I fall into the Model of 1902 camp. Don't forget to tighten the strain screw.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! The serial 55xxx indicates a Model 1902 from 1904. Although it has been polished down and plated over, I can see the trigger return stud and it is in the Model 1902 location just above the rear of the trigger guard. The gun has been refinished in nickel outside the factory.

 

[rct269]

The bone of contention doesn't amount to all that much other than to which path to follow.

Path #1 is it should be called what S&W called it their catalogs at a point in time----round butts are 1902s, square butts are 1905s.

Path #2 might be called "Action rules!"---as in a "pre 5 screw 4 screw" action is a 1902 (or prior----1890 something---which doesn't even enter into the discussion), and a 5 screw is a 1905---never mind the butts.

"You pays your money and you takes your pick!"

Now, the leader of Path #1 is a gentleman named Mike Priwer. He's one of the good guys, if for no other reason than he's a fan of the "4 screws", and took his time and acquired wisdom to invent a special tool which has saved yours truly and more than a few other folks from the necessity of uttering a whole string of bad words while attempting to disassemble/assemble one of those accursed "4 screws". We honor him by staying out discussions of what's right/wrong, proper/improper when it comes to what's what.

We sit quietly by, or simply remind the opposing proponents there are different strokes for different folks. Sitting quietly by seems to be the most prudent.

Mike has graciously explained the whys and wherefores of his invention to all comers---and they're the better for it.

Ralph Tremaine

And up there where I said "accursed "4 screws"", I likely should have said accursed, monkey motion 4 screws.

 

[Llance]

Errrrr, I'm of the school it's a transition piece.

There I said it.

 

[mikepriwer]

Ralph

After your introduction, I am at a loss for words! I thoroughly enjoyed every word you wrote, and and I'm still smiling and chuckling as I write this post.

From the perspective of the factory catalogs, a round butt is a Model of 1902 and a square butt is a Model of 1905.

From the perspective of engineering changes, the square butt model was introduced in the round butt serial number series, towards the end of the 1902 1st change. The proponents of the engineering change methodology chose to call the gun a Model of 1902 1st change. (It should have been called a 1905 1st change, but it wasn't.)

Shortly thereafter, the next engineering change was introduced. Proponents of the engineering change methodology chose to call both (round and square butt) models the Model of 1905, and the Model of 1902 disappears forever (in this terminology).

I think that most of the buying and selling marketplace today uses the engineering change methodology, and I live with that. When discussing S&W revolvers with collectors, we use the catalog methodology, which is, of course, how people bought and sold S&W's back in the day.

(The engineering methodology was developed in the S&W Service Department, who needed to know what parts to use when repairing these revolvers. The catalog methodology was used by the marketing and sales department, when selling the guns.)

Hope this is helpful.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Hawg Rider]

Welcome to the Forum! Regardless of whether you're in the Model of 1902 camp or Model of 1905 camp, you have an interesting conversation piece. Your revolver is not particularly rare or valuable, it's condition is not so good even after an old re-nickel job, so I hope you didn't pay much for it. It might be a good shooter but you should probably have a qualified gunsmith go through it first. Your revolver will probably clean up a little with a gentle application of Flitz Polish or Mother's Mag and Aluminum polish (remove stocks before cleaning). Good luck, and enjoy!

 

[handejector]

It's a 5 screw Model 1905 built with the round butt of the Model 1902.
How's that?

 

[JP@AK]

Lee

You are such a peacemaker. Maybe you should be a Colt's man and collect SAAs.

Seriously, I'm a catalog guy, but, like Mike, I refuse to make a big deal out of it. People can call them whatever they like to, but just don't call them "junk" unless they have been trashed.

As Mike noted, the "change" business was useful for the assembly people and the SD folks. It didn't become the popular lingo until McHenry & Roper published their book about it in 1945. If I understand it correctly, the information in the book was actually developed before the war, but not published until after.

 

[glowe]

Welcome. I think about this issue often and have developed my take on the debate and I fall on the side of the company naming convention. The company knew what they were making back in the day and knew enough to name every model ever made by S&W. They named the Model 1902 to fit the date of introduction. They named the Model 1905 the same way, but differentiated them by naming them square or round butt. Most models were easy, the N frame only came with square-butt stocks from their introduction up to WWII. The I frame only came with round-butts up to WWII. The company kept this naming convention throughout their pre-WWII catalogs. Four years later, the names of many models changed with the introduction of a new S&W book.

There was a guy named Walter Roper and yes he was the same guy who used to whittle stocks. Roper managed the Service Department at one time and the department's responsibility was to keep track and parts for many models. Roper did this by organizing bins that correspond with engineering changes and did not care about the butt design. Guess who was responsible for the current naming convention used by many, including Roy Jinks. It was Roy McHenry and Walter Roper in 1945, and of course, Roper used his engineering change identification system and came up with all model, change, and variation designations. Oh, Roper would call the revolver below a Model 1902, 1st Change. It is actually a 4 screw, square-butt gun without the rebound slide and one of the very first square butts shipped in 1905.

 

[Truckman]

It's a 5 screw Model 1905 built with the round butt of the Model 1902.
How's that?

Maybe it's even a post-4 screw pre-1905 no-dash......Ben

 

[rct269]

Welcome to the Forum! Regardless of whether you're in the Model of 1902 camp or Model of 1905 camp, you have an interesting conversation piece. Your revolver is not particularly rare or valuable, it's condition is not so good even after an old re-nickel job, so I hope you didn't pay much for it. It might be a good shooter but you should probably have a qualified gunsmith go through it first. Your revolver will probably clean up a little with a gentle application of Flitz Polish or Mother's Mag and Aluminum polish (remove stocks before cleaning). Good luck, and enjoy!

On the other hand, both of these recommended cleaning/polishing products contain abrasives---and are very likely just about the last thing you want anywhere near the finish of a gun. Bronze wool (0000) and some oil do an excellent job of cleaning. (The oil is simply to reduce friction, and carry debris in solution, so any oil is fine; and there's no need to use large quantities.)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Heinz]

Boertiger, welcome to the wonderful world of the S&W forum. The revolver guys are all down at the deep end of the pool.
Nice looking 38 special. Have it checked out, clean it without abrasives, and have fun with it. If it is in good shape, even with a little roughness in the bore, it should shoot very well.
For the automatic guys, Smith usually puts the Model Number right on the frame. There is no "Always' with Smith and Wesson