Please, is this an authentic H.E. Triple Lock?

[EcoCharlieZulu]

Hi! About 10 years ago i purchased this revolver, thinking it was a .44 Special Hand Ejector Triple Lock.
Then someone told me it was a fake TL rendition, mostly based on the shortage of stamped data on the barrel and frame.
Since that moment, i found myself looking at the gun with scepticism. Despite my suspicions about its pedigree, it kept shooting straight.
So, my first post in the S&W Forum is to ask you for help. Is this gentle beast a true Smith & Wesson? It has the sweetest double action i've ever tried. If I'm not missinformed, Triple Locks' manufacturing process was quite expensive...then, was it smart to clone an expensive revolver to a degree that it works as fine as an authentic one?
It is chambered in .44 special, that´s for real.
SN is 312430.
No data stamped on top of the barrel, nor the calibre stamp on the right side.
Just Smith & Wesson on left side of the barrel, small brand logo en the left side of the frame.
Barrel lenght is 18cm / roughly 7 inches.
"Useless number" in frame, opposite to the yoke, but no matching number on the yoke itself.
It has 4 screws (no "4th" screw).

 

[DWalt]

Not sure what you have, from a butt serial number that high it cannot be a TL or any other earlier N-frame. Something strange about it, would say it is not original. What about the serial numbers stamped in other places if there are any? Each grip panel is from a different era. Resembles a K-frame but they were not made for .44.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

DWalt, thanks for your answer. That's the only serial number; the one in the butt of the grip.

 

[DARE]

There have been some copies of triple locks. Have heard of Spanish and Brazilian, may have been some others. The highest serial number S&W put on a triple lock is 15375.
Here is my gun 12090 that shipped in April 1916. Differences between your gun and mine. I find the serial number in six places. Butt, cylinder, 3rd lock, crane, shroud and back of the extractor. My logo is larger than yours and on right side rather than the left. Mine has caliber on the left side where yours says Smith & Wesson. I have patents on top of the barrel.

 

[red9]

I have seen (and owned) a number of Spanish TL copies, mostly by Aranazabel and Hermanos Orbea. I have never, however, seen one with the Smith & Wesson name or logo. Some even, when you remove the grips, had a Colt V-spring action. This one is marked on the top of the barrel "Aranazabel Espana," has Spanish proofs and has a serial number very similar to yours.

Bob



[

 

[daddio202]

Looks to me like the serial is 3124 on the butt. There is a 30 after that but it doesn't look as deeply stamped and at a very slight angle compared to the other numbers. ???

 

[mikepriwer]

I think the best thing to do is to request a factory letter. Send along the pictures - they might be helpful. That there is only one serial number suggests that the parts are from different guns. The butt serial number does not look realistic, as it is too high. But, maybe this was some sort of experimental gun - or maybe not. Also, the stock pin in the butt is in the wrong place.

Mike Priwer

 

[quinn]

I agree with daddio... the last 2 digits of the serial are not on the same line as the other digits.

 

[red9]

Looks to me like the serial is 3124 on the butt. There is a 30 after that but it doesn't look as deeply stamped and at a very slight angle compared to the other numbers. ???

Two problems. That moves the number further off-center and the font of the two 3s is identical.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

There have been some copies of triple locks. Have heard of Spanish and Brazilian, may have been some others. The highest serial number S&W put on a triple lock is 15375.
Here is my gun 12090 that shipped in April 1916. Differences between your gun and mine. I find the serial number in six places. Butt, cylinder, 3rd lock, crane, shroud and back of the extractor. My logo is larger than yours and on right side rather than the left. Mine has caliber on the left side where yours says Smith & Wesson. I have patents on top of the barrel.

View attachment 764331

Thank you so much for your answer and information!

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

I have seen (and owned) a number of Spanish TL copies, mostly by Aranazabel and Hermanos Orbea. I have never, however, seen one with the Smith & Wesson name or logo. Some even, when you remove the grips, had a Colt V-spring action. This one is marked on the top of the barrel "Aranazabel Espana," has Spanish proofs and has a serial number very similar to yours.

Bob



[View attachment 764478

Wow! a good looking revolver! First time i've ever seen the ".44 special and US Service cgt" reference.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

I think the best thing to do is to request a factory letter. Send along the pictures - they might be helpful. That there is only one serial number suggests that the parts are from different guns. The butt serial number does not look realistic, as it is too high. But, maybe this was some sort of experimental gun - or maybe not. Also, the stock pin in the butt is in the wrong place.

Mike Priwer

Stock pin... wow! you ave hawk's eye!

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

Looks to me like the serial is 3124 on the butt. There is a 30 after that but it doesn't look as deeply stamped and at a very slight angle compared to the other numbers. ???

You may be right... but all six numbers have a slight cant to the right

 

[DWalt]

Maybe from the Khyber Pass armory? My money would be on its origination being somewhere outside the USA.

 

[quinn]

FWIW, I have SN 413x whis is one of the estimated total dozen 7.5" fixe d sight TLs. It shipped in 1910. I'd have to pull it out to see the placement of the serial on the butt.

 

[Sebago Son]

Your revolver sure looks like a New Century in every way but the serial number and the finish. I would say that the gun was remarked with a bogus serial number when it was (over) polished and reblued.... now the real question is WHY?

 

[DARE]

For comparison, here is the serial number on my gun that is pictured earlier in the thread. Noticed the numbers read in the opposite direction on the two guns.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

For comparison, here is the serial number on my gun that is pictured earlier in the thread.

View attachment 764710

Markings are tidier, no doubt. Thank you.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

Your revolver sure looks like a New Century in every way but the serial number and the finish. I would say that the gun was remarked with a bogus serial number when it was (over) polished and reblued.... now the real question is WHY?

That´s the question, right? Did some neanderthal overpolished the revolver to the point of erasing barrel stamping? and ruined the serial number? Was that possible? Or is it a dishonest clone? At least the TL posted by Red9 has spanish factory marking...

 

[mrcvs]

If this is an authentic Triple Lock revolver, if buffed off the butt, there should be serial numbers in several other locations, including inside the shroud, and this isn't evident in the photograph provided.

I think Hondo44 has posted previously the location of all the serial numbers, these being 6 or 7 locations.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

If this is an authentic Triple Lock revolver, if buffed off the butt, there should be serial numbers in several other locations, including inside the shroud, and this isn't evident in the photograph provided.

I think Hondo44 has posted previously the location of all the serial numbers, these being 6 or 7 locations.

I was overwhelmed by all the S/N locations in original TLs. Mine is -evidently- not one of them.

 

[red9]

Looking closely at the OP's excellent quality photos, I have another question. Does this look more like a roll stamp or laser engraving:

 

[DARE]

Here is a roll mark from a 1935 .357 Magnum to compare.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

Looking closely at the OP's excellent quality photos, I have another question. Does this look more like a roll stamp or laser engraving:

Laser engraving on a fake revolver that showed up in Argentina around 2000? Hmmmm... Allow me to be a little sceptical

 

[Hondo44]

The OP's butt serial number reads right side up with barrel pointed to the left.
All S&W butt numbers read with barrel pointed to the right until 1942.

 

[RebCop]

Someone went to the trouble of putting a a triple lock Barrel and crane assembly in a standard S&W. When this was done they probably just wanted to change the caliber of say a 38/44.

 

[2152hq]

I think the 'S&W' on the bbl and the Logo on the LH sideplate have been added.

The bbl marking when looked at very closely looks like an acid etch with hand engraving clean up.
The letters don't match in height especially the 'S's. The vertical bars of many of the letters are less than vertical. The tips or ends of the elements of letters very often have a spear point shape. Sure sign of a v-point chisel being used to cut/recut the letter portion and done carelessly if trying to mimic a roll-die.

The Logo looks like maybe a stamp and some hand engraving involved.
If you look closely again, the process of placing the Logo on the sideplate took a couple trys.
There are the faint partial stamp marks of the circular outline of the logo in the 2oclock position
Plus a little of the bars of the 'E' in the word Trade at about 1oclock just above the word TRADE.
Way outside of that there is another divot of a sort. That my have been left over from the orig mfg's logo, though just a guess on that. There has been a lot of filing and metal removal in that area through.

On the inside of the grip strap frame on the RH side,,a factory work mark of 1 45 (?)
Is it a for real mark, a purposely done fake mark, or maybe something done by the orig mfg if othr than S&W.

The ser# looks like a Spanish revolver # to me.
No caliber marking
The grip pin placement has been noted.

Just some stuff I see.

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

The OP's butt serial number reads right side up with barrel pointed to the left.
All S&W butt numbers read with barrel pointed to the right until 1942.

Oh, didn´t know about that. Thanks for sharing. I will go and check another old gun i own... a .38 Hand Ejector

 

[EcoCharlieZulu]

I think the 'S&W' on the bbl and the Logo on the LH sideplate have been added.

The bbl marking when looked at very closely looks like an acid etch with hand engraving clean up.
The letters don't match in height especially the 'S's. The vertical bars of many of the letters are less than vertical. The tips or ends of the elements of letters very often have a spear point shape. Sure sign of a v-point chisel being used to cut/recut the letter portion and done carelessly if trying to mimic a roll-die.

The Logo looks like maybe a stamp and some hand engraving involved.
If you look closely again, the process of placing the Logo on the sideplate took a couple trys.
There are the faint partial stamp marks of the circular outline of the logo in the 2oclock position
Plus a little of the bars of the 'E' in the word Trade at about 1oclock just above the word TRADE.
Way outside of that there is another divot of a sort. That my have been left over from the orig mfg's logo, though just a guess on that. There has been a lot of filing and metal removal in that area through.

On the inside of the grip strap frame on the RH side,,a factory work mark of 1 45 (?)
Is it a for real mark, a purposely done fake mark, or maybe something done by the orig mfg if othr than S&W.

The ser# looks like a Spanish revolver # to me.
No caliber marking
The grip pin placement has been noted.

Just some stuff I see.

Thank you so much for the meticulous analysis, pal

 

[Jim Watson]

Might the 1 45 on the grip frame indicate a January 1945 overhaul?