Pocket Carry and 50 yard accuracy possible?

[RobsTV]

Is there any revolver that can get 4" groups at 50 yards and still fit into front pant pockets? Probably using cast bullets that fit better in barrel, and will be more accurate than commercial jacketed.

Thinking best bet is something along the lines of a 3" barrel to at least to be able to get good groups at 50 yards when used in single action. Don't think a 3" DA would be able to do it (except by seasoned shooters with mega hours of practice). SA would only be used during range target practice, or for varmits, otherwise for CCW DA mode. 3" is also pushing things for pocket, and seems most think that is too large to pocket carry.

Any ideas on making this happen?

As a side note, having something this accurate and using it are not the same thing. It would still probably be used at up to 25 yard distances, which will be better still if it can get 4" groups at 50 yards. Something like this will make 25 yards much easier.

 

[Dragon88]

You can easily find a gun capable of this. Finding a shooter capable of it is the problem.

 

[RobsTV]

You can easily find a gun capable of this. Finding a shooter capable of it is the problem.

I guess shooting from a fixed rest would confirm the gun as 4" accurate at 50 yards. And it is easy to find one this accurate that could still be pocket carried?

Could you please give a few examples of models that will work?

 

[Arik]

I tried my friend's Model 13 (which led me to buy one) and i was able to consistently hit a clay pigeon @ 50 yards but im not sure it would fit in a pocket

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[RobsTV]

Is a 5 shot 38 spl cylinder much smaller than 357mag, or are they close enough that 38 or 357 would be a wash?

Thinking 5 shot 38 for thinner and shorter cylinder making it a little easier to pocket carry.

 

[Bart 44]

Don't think a 3" DA would be able to do it (except by seasoned shooters with mega hours of practice).
QUOTE]

I agree with what Dragon88 said. There are any number of Smith J frames that are capable of 4 inch 50 yard groups.....shooters not so much. You said same yourself in your quote above.....

If you are asking for a pocket gun that will let the average shooter shoot 4 inch 50 yard groups it's not going to happen.


Dennis.

 

[BobR1]

That is asking a lot out of a pocket pistol.
A pocket pistol will normally be 1-7/8" to 2-1/8" in Barrel Length. That is not a lot of sight radius to work with.
A 3" barrel would definently help with long range accuracy.

IF the Gun had a fantastic set of Sights. and
IF the Gun had a fantastic Trigger. and
IF the gun was a great shooting gun to start with. and
IF conditions were just right. and
IF you had just the right Target to put your sight on.

A 4" group at 50 yards is do-able by someone who is one heck of a shot. Even then that 4" group probably is not do-able consistently on demand.

If I were going to try and shoot a 4" 50 yard group with a J Frame. I would look for a Kit Gun that has adjustable sights as a starting place.

Bob

 

[RobsTV]

Don't think a 3" DA would be able to do it (except by seasoned shooters with mega hours of practice).
QUOTE]

I agree with what Dragon88 said. There are any number of Smith J frames that are capable of 4 inch 50 yard groups.....shooters not so much. You said same yourself in your quote above.....

If you are asking for a pocket gun that will let the average shooter shoot 4 inch 50 yard groups it's not going to happen.


Dennis.

I do see that as not happening with DA, but even when used in single action it won't happen for the average "decent" shooter, (not a seasoned pro)?

And again, having it be this accurate at 50 yards, then using it normally at 25 yards or less, was hoping that it will allow the average shooter to be more accurate (sub 3") at 25 yards.

Maybe a better topic would have been:
"What is the most accurate Pocket Carry revolver for longer distances"

 

[mrvtalks]

4" Group Pocket pistol

I recently bought a Beretta Nano 9mm and it is very accurate. I must confess that I have not shot it 50 yards but I can put rounds into the eyesockets of a silouette Skeleton at 25 feet. I agree with the others that even if the gun can make the shot you require not many shooters are steady enough to pull it off. I shoot bullseye at 50 yards with a target 22 S&W 22-A and the long line fifty yard shot is always challenging. I am curious as to why you would demand that kind of accuracy from a pocket pistol which by most accounts is stricktly for defensive purposes. At fifty yards, you may have a hard time convincing a jury that you were in serious peril. Just a thought! Good shooting to you.

 

[Dragon88]

I understand what you are looking for, but is 25 or 50 yard accuracy really necessary for a pocket carried gun? How many self-defense situations will you find yourself in where you need to take a 50 yard shot on a threat? In most states it's hard to imagine a situation where that is legal under any circumstances. If you need to fight at 50 yards, use the pistol to fight your way to the rifle in your truck.

Having a supremely accurate carry gun is certainly a good thing. But I think you are setting yourself up for lots of frustration if you stick to this 50 yard requirement. A 15 or 25 yard standard is much more reasonable for the type of gun being discussed.

 

[RobsTV]

I am curious as to why you would demand that kind of accuracy from a pocket pistol which by most accounts is stricktly for defensive purposes. At fifty yards, you may have a hard time convincing a jury that you were in serious peril. Just a thought! Good shooting to you.

Like many on a limited budget, to have a one purpose gun that hopefully will never be used for that purpose is not in the budget. This calls for compromise. As it is now, I have a P-64 as a pocket pistol, but the accuracy is not up to par for 25 yards. It also is not as simple and reliable as a revolver for a carry weapon.

Recent purchase of a 4" model 64-5 that is very accurate has me wondering what falls between these two. The 64-5 does actually fit into my front pants pocket, but of course the butt hangs out a little, and it weighs a little more than I wish.

Give up a little of the P-64's size for a little better accuracy. Upgrade my current pocket pistol for a dual purpose version, that can be used for target work at distances.

Also, for self defense, (or even to protect others), it would be better to know that you do not need to wait for an armed assailant to get closer to you than 7 yards before you can have any thoughts of taking them out. Perhaps he has an a weapon that is accurate at 50 yards? Don't think there is anything wrong with carrying a better more accurate weapon than will probably ever be needed.

 

[Prof_Fate]

Depends...what ammo?
At our PPC shoots a few guys can get scores of 580+ with 686 snubbies (600 is perfect, so that's 60 shots in an index card sized area. 580 means 20 are between that and say a paper dinner plate).
But they're all shooting light wadcutter loads - 2.7gr bullseye usually.
And most of the shots are braced - a barricade, knee, ground (prone) - not just weaver and shoot.

Doing that will full house defensive ammo is another thing entirely.
A 686 has some weight to it..a poly auto is gonna make it a lot tougher I think - I can do 90% as well with my snubbie shooting double action (after owning it 2 weeks) as I can with my XDm9 5.25 after 8 months and 2000+ rounds.

 

[RobsTV]

Depends...what ammo?
...
But they're all shooting light wadcutter loads - 2.7gr bullseye usually.
And most of the shots are braced - a barricade, knee, ground (prone) - not just weaver and shoot.

Doing that will full house defensive ammo is another thing entirely.
...

As a reloader, something like that could work well. Swap out the more powerful self defensive rounds when going to the longer range for more accurate target rounds. Great low cost solution. It won't get bad guys at 50 yards, but hopefully at 25 yards it will still be an accurate CCW.

Now, with that as the method used, which models would give best results at 50 yard using SA only from a sandbag, yet still be able to pocket carry fairly well and use DA?

 

[crofoot629]

Um..... That's why my small gun is still a Glock 26.

Emory

 

[David Sinko]

I have a couple of 2" revolvers and every one of them is minute of man at 50 yards from a rest. My favorites are my 43C, 940 and 625. My 2" 625 with adjustable rear sight has already put all six on a man size target at 100 yards from a rest, once I determined how much front sight to hold up. I also have a Model 60 with a trashed bore that is still incredibly accurate with jacketed bullets and could probably deliver the goods at long range. Overall the short 625 is still the best shooter because of the larger frame size and better sights. Whether you consider that a pocket gun is open for debate.

You will never know how the cast bullets perform out of a 2" barrel until you actually try them. As an example, my 940 is extremely accurate with the cast RN, but substitute a cast FP of the same weight with everything else being equal and some of the bullets will keyhole and not hit the target at 50 yards. The 625 actually prefers a slightly leaded bore, or some types of cast bullets will cut slightly oblong holes at 50 yards.

In the grand scheme of things, 50 yards is not very far, even for a 2" revolver. How well you can see your sights in relation to the target will probably be your biggest obstacle, once you have a load that you know is accurate.

Dave Sinko

 

[mc5aw]

Think of it this way ... big horsepower and slick handling are possible from a muscle car, but not probable. McQueen's Mustang in "Bullitt" couldn't compete with the monster hp Charger on a straightaway, but it held its own once curves and twisties were thrown into the equation. You can't have everything, thus the trade-off. A pocket gun is designed for compact carry, not long range accuracy ... but as mentioned by others, type of load, specific firearm, etc. will play into the equation. 50 yard distance accuracy is a moot point however if the shooter can't put the rounds on the target, irrespective of what is being shot.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

"Easily" The ransom rest disagrees.
You won't find a large percentage of 2" revolvers that will shoot under 4" at 50 yards. And you also won't find a very many shooters who can make them do it, even from sandbags. No question you can find one, but I would say it won't likely be easy.

 

[JAREDSHS]

I will buy you a beer if you can repeatedly print under 4 inch groups at 50 yards with you pocket gun. I think even Jerry would call that feat a real challenge. Come on folks get real here.

 

[gwalchmai]

Bob Munden can hit a 6" ballon with a j-frame at 200 yards, so why not?
Bob Munden -- Impossible 200 Yard Shot - YouTube

 

[P95loser]

Also can you define "pocket pistol"? Baggy blue jeans MIGHT be able to hide a 3" j frame which is 7 1/2" long and 22 oz. I would say a 3" barrel with longer sight radius would make things much easier at that distance, but then you have to live with that length and weight in your pocket every day.

 

[RobsTV]

Also can you define "pocket pistol"? Baggy blue jeans MIGHT be able to hide a 3" j frame which is 7 1/2" long and 22 oz. I would say a 3" barrel with longer sight radius would make things much easier at that distance, but then you have to live with that length and weight in your pocket every day.

Yes, besides the accuracy, being able to pocket carry is just as important for me. Not in tight jeans, only looser type pants. And the current pocket pistol I use, P-64, weighs 22 oz empty.

Current P-64 (Polish version of Makarov 9x18), has a 4.5" sight radius. The extra 1/2" that a J-frame 3" barrel has can't hurt. But going to something smaller than my current 4.5" sight radius means I might as well stick with what I have, which is what things are looking like anyway.

 

[oldafsp]

I think your looking for the one gun fits all solution.

That, is truly not happening. If you want bullseye accuracy(and thats what your calling out with 4"@ 50yds) then your looking for a very accurate target pistol.

I've met maybe,maybe a dozen shooters in my lifetime that could pull that kind of accuracy off with a concealable handgun.

Your Model 64 is a fine weapon. It's not a pocket gun. It's a great home defense weapon, range gun and carry gun. With the proper rig.

Here's the challenge I will put to you:

Using the 64, with 158gr +P ammo, put up a 7 inch diameter paper plate at 15yards. Shooting double action only, see how many you can keep on that plate.

Let us know how you make out.
Safe shooting

 

[clang444]

You are in the world of trade-offs when it comes to pocket guns. You have to factor in cocealability, stopping power, capacity and long range accuracy. The internet is full of opinions on this matter if you do a little searching.

You have to figure out what best suits your criteria. Since you are here at the S&W modern revolver forum, I would suggest that the S&W Model 60 with 3" barrel and adjustable sights may be what you are looking for. It's a little large and heavy for pocket carry, but the extra barrel length, adjustable sights, and ability to fire single action should help with long range accuracy. It is also a 5 shot cylinder, so if you are a "more is better" type, it may not fit your needs. Choice of loading .357 Magnum or .38 Special.

I've got a 60-10 and it looks and shoots like a baby 686. I prefer .38 specials in mine, but that is a personal preference.

 

[RobsTV]

Here's the challenge I will put to you:

Using the 64, with 158gr +P ammo, put up a 7 inch diameter paper plate at 15yards. Shooting double action only, see how many you can keep on that plate.

Let us know how you make out.
Safe shooting

Just so happen to have done that over the weekend, as the first time I fired the model 64-5.

Here is a photo of its very first 6 test shots by me at 15 yards, using double action only. Gun is for the wife, as she can finally hit paper with something, although she shoots it SA. The green ring is 4" diameter. Take away the flyer and 5 shots in a 1.5" group. Again, never shot prior, and actually did this when we stopped at a friends house on our way home from picking up the gun. Not even cleaned or fully inspected. Only other revolver I shoot is an 8 3/8" S&W 500, which I am trying to get sub 3" groups at 100 yards.

I am not expecting to pick up a pocket gun and first cylinder full being this accurate. But with a couple hours practice I hope to. Doesn't look like it will happen though with my requirements.

 

[mrvtalks]

Pocket Carry Accuracy

Robstv,

After having been laid of for twenty months (Working now thank goodness) I understand the budget issues completely. If you really want to hone your skills buy a 22 caliber target pistol (Ruger Mark II or III, S and W 22-A, Browning Buckmark etc.) Ammo is cheap, they are deadly accurate right out of the box at 50 yards. Find yourself a bullseye league which is really fun and the guys are usually always ready to help and instruct. If you shoot bullseye for a while you will find that your command of trigger control and mental discipline and focus will improve the shootiing of any pistol you own. You find out very quickly that to discharge a bullet you don't "Pull" the trigger. You apply steady pressure until the gun surprises you by firing. Lesson over? LOL! Bullseye is the ultimate pistol discipline for the purist who wants to master the art of firing a pistol one handed at great distance.

Then, if you run into trouble in the world and get to use both hands, your going to be so steady you could hardly miss I bet. Anyway, good talking with you and I hope you can accomplish whatever you choose to pursue in your shooting exploits.

 

[oldafsp]

Bob Munden can hit a 6" ballon with a j-frame at 200 yards, so why not?

Very true...Bob is one of those naturals with a gun in his hand. He has lived,eaten and breathed shooting his entire life. He is an example of superior hand and eye coordination with no doubt.

Just like superb athletes, shooters like Bob Munden, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, Ed McGivern and so many others only come around once in awhile.

I've had the honor of watching some of those men display amazing skills...you have to see it in person to believe it.

The average shooter/handgun owner is not even close...

 

[murphydog]

Good answers all. However, if your goal is 50 yard accuracy, I don't understand the pocket-size limitation. Plenty of guns just over this size range that can be easily carried in a holster have greater practical (as opposed to intrinsic or bench rest) accuracy. Holsters don't weigh that much.

 

[gwalchmai]

Very true...Bob is one of those naturals with a gun in his hand. He has lived,eaten and breathed shooting his entire life. He is an example of superior hand and eye coordination with no doubt.

Just like superb athletes, shooters like Bob Munden, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, Ed McGivern and so many others only come around once in awhile.

I've had the honor of watching some of those men display amazing skills...you have to see it in person to believe it.

The average shooter/handgun owner is not even close...

The "average shooter" can't make the 200 yard shot, but with dedicated practice he can hit a man at 50 yards, even with a j frame. Granted, once he does that much practice, he won't be an average shooter.

As for your 15 yard 7" challenge, that's no great shakes. My standard practice is DA shooting 3" targets at 15 yards. On a good day I hit them all. On a real good day I hit them all with one hand. And I'm not even particularly good.

 

[oldafsp]

The "average shooter" can't make the 200 yard shot, but with dedicated practice he can hit a man at 50 yards, even with a j frame. Granted, once he does that much practice, he won't be an average shooter.

As for your 15 yard 7" challenge, that's no great shakes. My standard practice is DA shooting 3" targets at 15 yards. On a good day I hit them all. On a real good day I hit them all with one hand. And I'm not even particularly good.

You'd be surprised how many shooters cannot hit that 7" target at 15 yards. Apparently you practice more than the "average" shooter, which is good.

I shoot on the average about 350-500 rounds a week. But, I am retired and have my own 50 yard combat range in my backyard. One day a week I reload.

You said the key word : On a good day. Sometimes I can pull off some pretty spectacular shooting. And on other days...well sometimes not so good on the difficult stuff. But there is always the joy of the challenge..

Always working on weak hand drills, reloading, cover and movement. I truly don't want to lose what I have by not practicing enough.

 

[kcub]

Kahr mk40 elite maybe.

It is essentially a Walther ppk in a more robust chambering.