Pocket Carry and 50 yard accuracy possible?

[RobsTV]

Also can you define "pocket pistol"? Baggy blue jeans MIGHT be able to hide a 3" j frame which is 7 1/2" long and 22 oz. I would say a 3" barrel with longer sight radius would make things much easier at that distance, but then you have to live with that length and weight in your pocket every day.

Yes, besides the accuracy, being able to pocket carry is just as important for me. Not in tight jeans, only looser type pants. And the current pocket pistol I use, P-64, weighs 22 oz empty.

Current P-64 (Polish version of Makarov 9x18), has a 4.5" sight radius. The extra 1/2" that a J-frame 3" barrel has can't hurt. But going to something smaller than my current 4.5" sight radius means I might as well stick with what I have, which is what things are looking like anyway.

 

[oldafsp]

I think your looking for the one gun fits all solution.

That, is truly not happening. If you want bullseye accuracy(and thats what your calling out with 4"@ 50yds) then your looking for a very accurate target pistol.

I've met maybe,maybe a dozen shooters in my lifetime that could pull that kind of accuracy off with a concealable handgun.

Your Model 64 is a fine weapon. It's not a pocket gun. It's a great home defense weapon, range gun and carry gun. With the proper rig.

Here's the challenge I will put to you:

Using the 64, with 158gr +P ammo, put up a 7 inch diameter paper plate at 15yards. Shooting double action only, see how many you can keep on that plate.

Let us know how you make out.
Safe shooting

 

[clang444]

You are in the world of trade-offs when it comes to pocket guns. You have to factor in cocealability, stopping power, capacity and long range accuracy. The internet is full of opinions on this matter if you do a little searching.

You have to figure out what best suits your criteria. Since you are here at the S&W modern revolver forum, I would suggest that the S&W Model 60 with 3" barrel and adjustable sights may be what you are looking for. It's a little large and heavy for pocket carry, but the extra barrel length, adjustable sights, and ability to fire single action should help with long range accuracy. It is also a 5 shot cylinder, so if you are a "more is better" type, it may not fit your needs. Choice of loading .357 Magnum or .38 Special.

I've got a 60-10 and it looks and shoots like a baby 686. I prefer .38 specials in mine, but that is a personal preference.

 

[RobsTV]

Here's the challenge I will put to you:

Using the 64, with 158gr +P ammo, put up a 7 inch diameter paper plate at 15yards. Shooting double action only, see how many you can keep on that plate.

Let us know how you make out.
Safe shooting

Just so happen to have done that over the weekend, as the first time I fired the model 64-5.

Here is a photo of its very first 6 test shots by me at 15 yards, using double action only. Gun is for the wife, as she can finally hit paper with something, although she shoots it SA. The green ring is 4" diameter. Take away the flyer and 5 shots in a 1.5" group. Again, never shot prior, and actually did this when we stopped at a friends house on our way home from picking up the gun. Not even cleaned or fully inspected. Only other revolver I shoot is an 8 3/8" S&W 500, which I am trying to get sub 3" groups at 100 yards.

I am not expecting to pick up a pocket gun and first cylinder full being this accurate. But with a couple hours practice I hope to. Doesn't look like it will happen though with my requirements.

 

[mrvtalks]

Pocket Carry Accuracy

Robstv,

After having been laid of for twenty months (Working now thank goodness) I understand the budget issues completely. If you really want to hone your skills buy a 22 caliber target pistol (Ruger Mark II or III, S and W 22-A, Browning Buckmark etc.) Ammo is cheap, they are deadly accurate right out of the box at 50 yards. Find yourself a bullseye league which is really fun and the guys are usually always ready to help and instruct. If you shoot bullseye for a while you will find that your command of trigger control and mental discipline and focus will improve the shootiing of any pistol you own. You find out very quickly that to discharge a bullet you don't "Pull" the trigger. You apply steady pressure until the gun surprises you by firing. Lesson over? LOL! Bullseye is the ultimate pistol discipline for the purist who wants to master the art of firing a pistol one handed at great distance.

Then, if you run into trouble in the world and get to use both hands, your going to be so steady you could hardly miss I bet. Anyway, good talking with you and I hope you can accomplish whatever you choose to pursue in your shooting exploits.

 

[oldafsp]

Bob Munden can hit a 6" ballon with a j-frame at 200 yards, so why not?

Very true...Bob is one of those naturals with a gun in his hand. He has lived,eaten and breathed shooting his entire life. He is an example of superior hand and eye coordination with no doubt.

Just like superb athletes, shooters like Bob Munden, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, Ed McGivern and so many others only come around once in awhile.

I've had the honor of watching some of those men display amazing skills...you have to see it in person to believe it.

The average shooter/handgun owner is not even close...

 

[murphydog]

Good answers all. However, if your goal is 50 yard accuracy, I don't understand the pocket-size limitation. Plenty of guns just over this size range that can be easily carried in a holster have greater practical (as opposed to intrinsic or bench rest) accuracy. Holsters don't weigh that much.

 

[gwalchmai]

Very true...Bob is one of those naturals with a gun in his hand. He has lived,eaten and breathed shooting his entire life. He is an example of superior hand and eye coordination with no doubt.

Just like superb athletes, shooters like Bob Munden, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, Ed McGivern and so many others only come around once in awhile.

I've had the honor of watching some of those men display amazing skills...you have to see it in person to believe it.

The average shooter/handgun owner is not even close...

The "average shooter" can't make the 200 yard shot, but with dedicated practice he can hit a man at 50 yards, even with a j frame. Granted, once he does that much practice, he won't be an average shooter.

As for your 15 yard 7" challenge, that's no great shakes. My standard practice is DA shooting 3" targets at 15 yards. On a good day I hit them all. On a real good day I hit them all with one hand. And I'm not even particularly good.

 

[oldafsp]

The "average shooter" can't make the 200 yard shot, but with dedicated practice he can hit a man at 50 yards, even with a j frame. Granted, once he does that much practice, he won't be an average shooter.

As for your 15 yard 7" challenge, that's no great shakes. My standard practice is DA shooting 3" targets at 15 yards. On a good day I hit them all. On a real good day I hit them all with one hand. And I'm not even particularly good.

You'd be surprised how many shooters cannot hit that 7" target at 15 yards. Apparently you practice more than the "average" shooter, which is good.

I shoot on the average about 350-500 rounds a week. But, I am retired and have my own 50 yard combat range in my backyard. One day a week I reload.

You said the key word : On a good day. Sometimes I can pull off some pretty spectacular shooting. And on other days...well sometimes not so good on the difficult stuff. But there is always the joy of the challenge..

Always working on weak hand drills, reloading, cover and movement. I truly don't want to lose what I have by not practicing enough.

 

[kcub]

Kahr mk40 elite maybe.

It is essentially a Walther ppk in a more robust chambering.

 

[Bart 44]

Bob Munden can hit a 6" ballon with a j-frame at 200 yards, so why not?

First....Bob is way way above average.

Second....I think most shooters realize Bob didn't necessarily hit the 6 inch balloon but the much bigger steel plate the balloon was on. A hit anywhere on the steel plate will break the balloon. Still an exceptional shot.....

Dennis.

 

[i.hunt]

It's doable with the right gun.... Going back about 10+ years ago I went to an Assault Rifle Instructor School, if you had a malfunction when practicing or qualifying you transitioned to your sidearm, well this day my sidearm was my Glock 27, I didn't know I needed my duty gun (Glock 23) I left it at home in the safe, when not in uniform I always carried my Glock 27, kind of big for pocket gun IMO... well at the 50 yard line shooting my M4 I had a malfunction and needed to fire 2 more rounds, I drew my glock 27 and quickly shot point shoulder two rounds, they landed within an inch apart and touching the top of the Q on the FBI Q target and that is point shoulder!!!!! can a pocket gun do a 4 inch or better group at 50 yards..... absolutely.... if you have the right gun and practice, you must absolutely know your trajectory, where it is hitting, heck we Range guys use to mess around on the rifle range at 100+ yards all the time just for kicks with our little Glock 27's and 23's lol... my current pocket gun is a Ruger LCP that I know CAN NOT do a 4" group at 50 yards and I think it's mainly because of the sights

 

[NFrameFred]

Intrinsic accuracy verses practical accuracy. Too many variables and folks who "just know" staking out their favorite positions pro and con.

As has been said, more often than not the machine is probably up to the task and extremely few shooters can take advantage of it and make it happen. Another huge variable if you're talking "group size" is the ammo chosen. I've seen machine rested guns that would eat out one hole with match ammo that wouldn't hold 3" at 75 feet with crummy ammo.

The bottom line is, how good can you hit from a cold start at that range picking up the gun and shooting one cylinder under practical conditions ? Not "on a good day" or if "everything is perfect" but what is your average using a decent gun and the best ammo you can put in it given the above described scenario ?

One can wax preposterous and ponderously all day long about how many angels can dance on the head of that pin but it's all academic speculation, theoretical probability and bar room BS until the deed is done on the range with live ammo at that distance a sufficient number of times to establish a baseline of practical accuracy for that man, with that gun, with that ammo. And that's all that really counts. The rest is the sound of air moving around . . . .

 

[P95loser]

I would definately say the small groove/ramp sights on a basic j frame wouldn't work...

 

[NFrameFred]

Good answers all. However, if your goal is 50 yard accuracy, I don't understand the pocket-size limitation. Plenty of guns just over this size range that can be easily carried in a holster have greater practical (as opposed to intrinsic or bench rest) accuracy. Holsters don't weigh that much.

As a legal civilian, if I feel like I have to shoot at him that far away with a pocket piece it's to try to keep him ducking for cover while I get to a long gun or can get away . . . . .

 

[A10]

Hi, Rob!

There have been some thoughtful posts on the accuracy issue. I'll share some of my thoughts. Accuracy is different for every individual, you may be able to shoot far more accurately with a revolver than I can, and I may be able to shoot a semiauto more accurately than you. I guess what I'm saying is that what you choose will need to be the right gun for you. Mechanically, most handguns should be able to meet your 8 m.o.a. accuracy expectation given the right ammunition and good quality manufacturing. So, what do you like to shoot, revolvers, semi's, derringers, single shots, etc.? What fits your hand best? What points most naturally for you? Next, what level of recoil are you most comfortable with? Some folks here can shoot a lightweight .44 mag all day long, some are maxing out their recoil tolerance with 9mm or .38(Me, the older I get the less recoil I like on a regular basis). You should also think about what you can afford to shoot A LOT! In order to reach your accuracy potential, you will have to practice A BUNCH! This should also include dry fire to refine your trigger control and sight alignment. Speaking of sights, get something with sights that work for YOU. My eyes are getting old, and I need big, bright shiney things to look at. Your eyesight may be much better, so smaller sights might work. Again, make sure they are right for you.

I guess I'm saying that though there is some good advice here, ya gotta go with what is right for you.

Oh, and there are some 2" target sighted Model 15s out there, that might be my choice given your parameters....

 

[Lobster Picnic]

Model 60-4 is a 3" J-frame with full underlug barrel and adjustable sights. It shoots .38 Special only and has a very tight cylinder window. The target hammer and trigger will help with long shots. The heavy barrel keeps things steady. Weight is 24.5 oz and you'll need a pretty big pocket.

I'm not a great shooter by any stretch, but I have shot a 60-4 at 25 yards and been pleased with the results. The group at that distance was less than 4", shooting offhand in SA.

 

[scooter123]

I would expect that almost any of the current generation of J frames are capable of shooting in the region of 4 inches at 50 yards. Most don't realise it but shorter barrels often prove to be capable of greater mechanical accuracy that longer barrels because the end of the barrel doesn't deflect as far as a longer barrel in response to a bullet transitting the barrel. Bascially, short barrels don't whip around nearly as much as longer barrels and as a result they are often more accurate.

However, the key question is whether the shooter is capable of shooting a 4 inch group at 50 yards. I would suggest that you try doing this and see how well you do. I've done some 50 yard handgun shooting and I don't think you appreciate just how difficult it is.

 

[vipermd]

Rob: You got me thinking. During the 80's I carried a speed six, 2 5/8, 357. I started at 20 feet, then moved my way out. I could ( off a bench, SA, 357 125 gr rem, put 5 of 6 into a 12" square at 100 yd ) I used to do a lot of handgun groundhog hunting, I reloaded, and the gun was accurate. I still have a number of speed sixes and a 3" 36. My eyes are 32 yrs older. I will try the 36 for fun, off a rest, sa. I think the biggest problem will be the right 38 load. I will let you know. Maybe I could ship it to JM in La?? LOL Be Safe,

 

[walkin' trails]

Yes, it is possible with a J-frame and some other pocket-size guns.

Hitting with a two inch J-frame at the 50 is possible, even off-hand. At least with a human torso-sized target. Most of it depends on shooter skills - you must apply all of the fundamentals, especially with the sometimes hard to see sights and short sight radius. Barrel length doesn't mean much out to 50 in my opinion - its all sight picture and trigger control. Of course ammunition does play some part. Use a heavier bullet and remember that the .38 special was designed around a 158 grain lead bullet to be at its best. Factory loaded wadcutters may even have the range and are not likely to drop significantly enough to make a difference. In training, I'd do a lot of dry firing on a small target on the wall so that I could manage the trigger effectively before putting rounds down range from that distance.

I have worked for organizations with handgun qualification courses that went out to 50 yards, and found that the smaller guns weren't any less "real world" accurate at those distances than the full sized guns. Once on a range detail years ago, I occasionally shot at pepper poppers at 100 yards with various toys I carried or drug to the range to play with. I found that I could consistently hit a popper (hit, not knock down) with a Beretta 21A in .22 LR with a 1 1/2 inch barrel and sights worse than any J-frame at that distance.

I've also seen shooters with full sized semi autos with good SA triggers or four inch revolvers again with good SA triggers that wasted a lot of ammo hitting around but not anywhere near a target at 50. Again, its shooter skills brought on by good training. Let us know how it works.