Point of aim help

[scsu74]

Hey guys, I'm having some trouble with my new full size 9. My groups are consistently low and left. I'm coming from a gen 4 Glock 17 that I shoot very well, point of aim = point of impact. I'm using the same grip and the same ammo. With my glock I typically use a 6 o clock hold and have been using the same for my m&p. I read a few other threads where some guys talked about covering the target as opposed to the way I'm aiming, any merit to this?

I tried mixing in some dummy rounds and I'm not flinching with recoil. My trigger pull is also very smooth and consistent, so I'm not sure what is causing the rounds to go where they are. Any help is appreciated!

 

[RobzGuns]

The differences in grip width, as well as Trigger-to-Backstrap length can be a factor as to which part of one's trigger finger to use in order to achieve a straight rearward trigger press. What works for one Brand/Size/Model pistol does not always work for other Brands/Sizes/Models.

As an example, when switching from my G26 to my Shield, there's a difference in the trigger-to-backstrap length and I needed to move from the center of the pad of my trigger finger to the crease of 1st joint in order to beat the 'Low-Left Blues'. This also cured a few others here.

When doing a dry fire session, is the muzzle twisting left at all, due to trigger press? If so, you need to reassess trigger finger placement.
To me, diagnosing trigger press problems is where a laser is Most useful. They will show muzzle movement more than anything.

If you've been shooting for a while, you're probably already aware of the Diagnostic Shooting Wheel. If not, I'm sure someone will post a copy here, as they have in every other 'Low-Left' thread here.

 

[scsu74]

That's the frustrating thing, during dry fire my front sight isn't moving at all. I even balanced a piece of empty brass on the front sight to confirm it wasn't moving. So would less trigger finger bring the group to the right?

 

[Kershon]

Here are some targets that helped me.[/ATTACH]

 

[ejeli]

Dumb question but have you checked the sight alignment with this gun and this load. What shoots in one gun does not mean it will shoot the same point of aim in another. Just a thought.
e.

 

[gm272gs]

The first thing I would try (if I truly suspected the sights) is to eliminate the shooter. Give it to a friend to shoot and don't tell them how you're hitting with it. See if the friend shoots the same way. If he or she does shoot the same way, then borrow a good gun vise (or at least shoot it from a stable rest) and verify that your 3-shot groups are consistently low and left. If you are shooting from the 7-yard line from a rest, your 3-shot groups should be touching each other. You should have at least three 3-shot groups that are in the same place on fresh targets, before suspecting the sights are to blame, and adjusting them.

You can adjust the rear sight on your pistol for windage (drift it from either side), but not elevation. The elevation problem can be handled with simply moving from a 6 o'clock hold to a center of target hold.

 

[scsu74]

The first thing I would try (if I truly suspected the sights) is to eliminate the shooter. Give it to a friend to shoot and don't tell them how you're hitting with it. See if the friend shoots the same way. If he or she does shoot the same way, then borrow a good gun vise (or at least shoot it from a stable rest) and verify that your 3-shot groups are consistently low and left. If you are shooting from the 7-yard line from a rest, your 3-shot groups should be touching each other. You should have at least three 3-shot groups that are in the same place on fresh targets, before suspecting the sights are to blame, and adjusting them.

You can adjust the rear sight on your pistol for windage (drift it from either side), but not elevation. The elevation problem can be handled with simply moving from a 6 o'clock hold to a center of target hold.

That's the weird thing, my groups are all one hole, just low left haha. I typically shoot 5 shot groups depending on the drill and they're making one ragged hole. Would the front sight being off to the right cause rounds to impact left?

 

[scsu74]

Here are a few shots of the front sight. From the top it looks pretty close to center, from the front it looks way off..

 

[OKFC05]

You drift the front sight in the opposite direction you want to move the impact on target. Or, move the REAR sight the same way you want to move the impact on target.
M&Ps typically require a center hold on target.

How much off POA are we talking, and at what distance?

 

[Saudade]

Have you modified your Glock's trigger? 25 cent trigger job? Ghost Connector?

 

[scsu74]

You drift the front sight in the opposite direction you want to move the impact on target. Or, move the REAR sight the same way you want to move the impact on target.
M&Ps typically require a center hold on target.

How much off POA are we talking, and at what distance?

Gotcha, that makes sense then if my front sight isn't all the way centered as it appears it's not in the front picture.

It's about 1" low and 1" left at 3 yards aiming at a 2" circle with a 6 o clock hold. So I'm guessing I just need to raise my point of aim and center my front sight.

By center hold do you mean covering the target?

 

[scsu74]

Have you modified your Glock's trigger? 25 cent trigger job? Ghost Connector?

Nope, it's a stock gen 4 17, using the same Trij HD sights.

 

[Rpg]

Is that a flashlight I see stuck on your pistol?

If so, I'm curious whether hanging that extra equipment changes harmonics, vibration or something.

I'd be surprised if it had no impact.

Just my speculation, of course.

 

[OKFC05]

Combat sight, #3.

#2 Traditional Field sight

#1 is strictly for bullseye adjustable sights.

 

[ejeli]

As shown by OKFCO5 the normal sight alignment for normal shooting would be image 2 or 3. I prefer #3 but the main thing is that all your guns use the same sight picture. When SHTF you can't be trying to remember which gun you have and where to hold. It doesn't matter if the sight is slightly off center as long as POA = POI. Use the same sight alignment on all your guns, adjust left and right by drifting front or rear sight accordingly. Adjust vertically by changing front or rear sight to the proper height. A lot of the sight mfg's have charts available to help you compute how much change in height to get the proper POI.
e.

 

[Jiman]

Gotcha, that makes sense then if my front sight isn't all the way centered as it appears it's not in the front picture.

It's about 1" low and 1" left at 3 yards aiming at a 2" circle with a 6 o clock hold. So I'm guessing I just need to raise my point of aim and center my front sight.

By center hold do you mean covering the target?

I think you'll fix your elevation that way (#2 from OKFC05)

As for windage, that seems like a lot at 3 yds...a lot more than the thousandth or two that you're off on your front sight. How do your rears look?

Too much trigger finger can push you left too (assuming you're a righty).

 

[scsu74]

I think you'll fix your elevation that way (#2 from OKFC05)

As for windage, that seems like a lot at 3 yds...a lot more than the thousandth or two that you're off on your front sight. How do your rears look?

Too much trigger finger can push you left too (assuming you're a righty).

The rears look centered to me, maybe a hair to the right. The trigger finger comment makes sense, the m&p feels really small to me and I almost have my first knuckle on the trigger even with the large backstrap, I have XXL size hands. I've been trying to get the middle pad of my finger on the trigger during dry fire, but it isn't very comfortable.

As far as the weapon light, it's the same x300 I have on my Glock.

 

[Jiman]

What I would suggest then is to go back to 7 yds and work your way back to 25. IMO, there isn't a whole lot 3 yds is going to do for you to help with this issue. It's just too close.

If you're able to group consistently out to 15 yds, than whatever you're doing, you're doing consistently enough where a sight adjustment makes sense.

I'm wondering what your grip looks like. What's uncomfortable about using your first pad of your finger?

FWIW, I have L hands but use the small backstrap...go figure.

 

[ejeli]

Maybe I missed it but I don't see any mention anywhere that this gun has been shot off from a rest. Wouldn't it make more sense to test the gun and get the sights correct before worrying about grip and finger placement. I realize these are very important but changing grip to correct a sight problem is senseless.
e.

 

[ironhead7544]

The front sight is not centered. Fix that first. Your point of impact should be just above the front sight. So, if you are using a six o'clock hold on a round target, then you should hit at the bottom of the black.

Any firearm may need to be zeroed for your eyes and hold. You should be able to get a zero for your needs. With a handgun, I like a 25 yard zero. Use your chosen self defense load. There may be some difference in POI even with the same bullet weight from different makers.