Point Shoot - Outdated and useless?

[GeorgiaShooter]

Boy I may have walked into it but this older style point shoot method in a remarkably short time is already making my wife and I shoot with more accuracy and speed at 10-20ft distances than we've ever been able to do with sighting. In fact with some dry fire mixed with the range we're already nailing 3" circles I draw on the center of paper plates. We just focus on a spot, forget the sights, clutch the gun with an almost painful grip while crouched and from a stiff arm and SHAZAM! I've even started doing the gut to head zipper practice and we actually have never felt so confident in our abilities. This is in no small part to some very kind people on the S&W forum that have sent us links, references and lead us to the materials for Applegate and Shooting for Keeps. But we are already, due the lightning fast results, looking for more advanced ways to practice mobility, advancing on a target or defending against two attackers. Methods that seem bass-ackwards from logic but apparently work flawlessly during fight or flight, low light and close quarters. We can't practice to that degree on the local outdoor range here, especially drawing from the holster, not allowed. We also have to fire from the line directly forward.

So like a naive idiot I found a super professional shooting school here in the city that's fully endorsed, uses the local combat competition pit ranges at the gun club nearby. I was so taken back by their response I had to go read this speech-presentation by Applegate before his death, to recharge myself in the belief I am truly on the track of learning that will make me many times more effective than the more advanced muscle memory target sighting methods I can always work on long term for the rest of my training path.

If you read the (EMAIL BELOW) shooting school owner-instructor's comments he says things in direct conflict with Applegate. I have dry fire tested PS in my home at night and I cannot see any sights, and with a gun flash? forget about it. I also would not retreat as he indicates. In my mind I may even close the distance instantly firing from the gut upward to freeze up the bad guy and increase my accuracy. Wouldn't backing up while shooting be counter productive and even dangerous if I fall?

Is it true that noone teaches this anymore and it's outdated and not effective? I'm just picturing students on a fancy range full of props learning to walk backwards over smooth predictable terrain with sunlight and the weaver stance scoring wonderfully on the score sheet then getting in a real live situation and getting their arse shot off.

Sorry if this topic is old hat to many of you here. Likely more experienced than I. I know guns, hunting but I've never known self defense to this extent and the results are already eye opening to us. I'm not dismissing the advanced sighting methods completely but honestly if I'm 40-50 feet away why not just escape?

Applegate presentation, I had to go read again.
http://www.birdflumanual.com/resour...esentation to Police Firearms Instructors.pdf

More on PS
AIMED Point Shooting or P&S


EMAIL I SENT

Hi

I'm interested specifically in point shoot , combat firing, aka
Applegate style training for my wife, son and I. Could you advise me if you have those courses?

Thanks
Mr Me

======
EMAIL REPLY from Pro teacher

Mr x;

Applegate's Point Shooting concept was cutting edge in the 1940s. With the advent of competitive combat/practical pistol shooting in the 80s it was quickly realized it was possible for a skilled shooter to actually visually track the front sight through the recoil, conveying significant improvements in accuracy. Applegates concept has subsequently fallen out of favor - almost no one teaches Point Shooting anymore. I don't know of anyone who teaches it except as a historical footnote example.

Everyone these days teaches front sight focus. With practice a good shooter can go from holster to six shots on target in a six inch circle while retreating in under three seconds - with front sight focus.

Look at xxxx Club for range space - they allow this type of practice. Also see www.ourxxxxsite.com.

Mr xxxx
Co-owner

 

[off road]

Have a buddy who is a California parole agent. They just got new M&P40's, and they are retraining him heavily in point and shoot.

California Division of Parole Selects Smith Wesson M P40 Pistol

 

[oldman45]

Point & Shoot works better with some guns than others. The 1911 is one that it works well with. This is due to the index finger being so close to the alignment of the gun barrel, point and shooting works well. The higher the barrel, the less it works or requires more correction.

There was a lengthy article in one of the gun mags this month about this and it went into detail.

 

[cavegeo]

Here is a link to a school that still teaches point shooting.

Suarez International Point Shooting Progressions

 

[wharvey]

In competition point shooting isn't used because the difference between hitting the x-ring and a 10 is a big thing. Everyone seems to fall into the trap that we must do and use what the top shooters do any anything old is no longer any good. That is of course BS.

Look at how folks talk about the lowly .38 snub. Totally inadequate for self defense according to many "experts". It worked in the past and still works, just like point shooting still works, at reasonable ranges of course.

 

[tops]

Common sense tells me it is foolish to use 2 hands and look at sights if you can shoot one handed from the hip and hit the target. Larry

 

[Steve in Vermont]

It seems like every case of SD with a gun will be different, making it necessary for a different response. Having a criminal walk around a corner in your home, and find him feet away, will illicit one action. Having him standing at the end of a long hallway, perhaps another. In some situations all you may have time to do is pull your gun, point, and fire from the hip. In others, there may be time to get a good sight picture. This suggests that we need to incorporate these possibilities in our training/practice and develop the ability to be flexible in adapting responses to situations. It all comes down to being able to shoot as fast and accurately as possible using whatever position the situation demands.

 

[Rule 303]

I have always been trained in "point and shoot" method of shooting. The "KEY" is the distance. 3 yards to 5 yards OK,
5 yards to 10 yards, point shoulder shooting. Remember, at futher than 5 yards, front sight, front sight, front sight, front sight.............

Rule 303

 

[cshoff]

I would have to disagree with the person who replied to your email in that, in my experience, MOST trainers/organizations ARE still teaching one variety or another of "point shooting", though perhaps not specifically the Applegate method.

Even the NRA Personal Protection courses cover shooting from retention. Shooting from retention is covered in nearly all academy-level firearms training programs that LEO's go through and it's covered by just about any of the "top tier" trainers I can think of at some point in their training programs. That said, it's hard to argue that tactics and techniques have changed drastically over the past few decades and the use of point shooting within that realm has changed as well.

 

[daveh75]

To use a little bit of Socrates and be philosophical...."there is nothing new under the sun...you just have to remember it"....ok that is a little poetic license on the paraphrase but the message is the same....what works...works.....some people have better memories and remember every minutia of the incident, others don't...the use of force is not a day at the range...sure you must practice but with stress levels elevated it is a lot different...I recall going to one school and the instructor told me that under stress fine motor skills went out the window and I asked him how then could I pull the trigger since that was a fine motor skill....yeah he didn't like me much....train what works for you....point shooting IMHO is a great skill....but I also use a long bow.....and throw a football with my son.....the first thing that would have thrown me off about that email reply was the part when he said "competitive"...I don't shoot for trophies...just me, stay safe

 

[Will Carry]

Little Brother,
Point and shoot seems to be working for you. Go with it. Perfect it.
Keep posting the results. I will do the same.

 

[Kanewpadle]

It seems like every case of SD with a gun will be different, making it necessary for a different response. Having a criminal walk around a corner in your home, and find him feet away, will illicit one action. Having him standing at the end of a long hallway, perhaps another. In some situations all you may have time to do is pull your gun, point, and fire from the hip. In others, there may be time to get a good sight picture. This suggests that we need to incorporate these possibilities in our training/practice and develop the ability to be flexible in adapting responses to situations. It all comes down to being able to shoot as fast and accurately as possible using whatever position the situation demands.

Beat me to it.

There's sometimes a fight between those who like point shooting and those who don't.

I don't think people realize that both point shooting and steady aimed shooting may be neccessary to defend yourself. And both should be practiced.

 

[Fir Fer]

Now this is just my opinion, formed over 30+ years of gun handling, which 14 of those years I was in the Navy.(No I was not a SEAL)

PS is still a viable skill. Just because something is old does not mean it will not work, just like the example above with the .38 snub. All the new stuff I have seen was designed and perfected by and for the Spec-Op people working as a team and the competition shooters.

The truth is most people would feel ripped off if they paid the big bucks for a fancy Gun Drill school and all they were showed was how to PS. Also there is no money to be made teaching PS, you can learn the basics from the Col. and perfect it with a lot of range time.

The truth of the matter is, in an SD situation you do not need to be able to cover a five round group with a quarter.

 

[GeorgiaShooter]

Hey I'm here and just soaking up the information, links. It's a relief to see so many people that agree on so many points. I like the whole continuum idea shown in the SFK video which might be from around the late 90s and shows how techniques can feather together. But as said we can already target shoot but where my wife needs help is learning to shoot in that panic mode with the method that's in harmony with that kaos. And I gotta agree, how can defense or combat be much different now that 1835, 1940. If you are that far away to sight shoot, I might be able to get away.

 

[cshoff]

Now this is just my opinion, formed over 30+ years of gun handling, which 14 of those years I was in the Navy.(No I was not a SEAL)

PS is still a viable skill. Just because something is old does not mean it will not work, just like the example above with the .38 snub. All the new stuff I have seen was designed and perfected by and for the Spec-Op people working as a team and the competition shooters.

The truth is most people would feel ripped off if they paid the big bucks for a fancy Gun Drill school and all they were showed was how to PS. Also there is no money to be made teaching PS, you can learn the basics from the Col. and perfect it with a lot of range time.

That's because if all they taught you was how to point shoot, it wouldn't be a very comprehensive class.

The truth of the matter is, in an SD situation you do not need to be able to cover a five round group with a quarter.

No, perhaps not, but you DO need to be able to place combat accurate hits on your target from various distances under various circumstances WITHOUT hitting innocent bystanders. Oftentimes, that means you MUST use sighted fire.

Folks, defensive pistolcraft is NOT a one-dimensional skill set. It is an assembly of a variety of skills, tactics, and techniques that might well be needed to save our backsides under any number of different variables. "Point Shooting" in various forms, as well as different sighted-fire techniques, are BOTH important parts of the equation.

 

[Fir Fer]

That's because if all they taught you was how to point shoot, it wouldn't be a very comprehensive class.



No, perhaps not, but you DO need to be able to place combat accurate hits on your target from various distances under various circumstances WITHOUT hitting innocent bystanders. Oftentimes, that means you MUST use sighted fire.

Folks, defensive pistolcraft is NOT a one-dimensional skill set. It is an assembly of a variety of skills, tactics, and techniques that might well be needed to save our backsides under any number of different variables. "Point Shooting" in various forms, as well as different sighted-fire techniques, are BOTH important parts of the equation.

I agree, the more tools in your tool box, means you are more able to handle what ever comes up. Just don't let form out do function.

 

[ContinentalOp]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you need to be familiar with both sight and point shooting methods, at least if the purpose is self-defense. Further, you need to know your strengths and weaknesses with each, and when it's best to employ each method based on those strengths and weaknesses.

I practice both sight and point shooting, one-handed (weak and strong side) and two-handed. Through that practice I've figured out what works best for me, and that may change as my skills evolve. Ultimately you have to figure out what works best for you and develop those skills as best you can.

There are instructors that teach point shooting. One way to search for them is to also search for people who teach WWII fighting techniques, or "gutterfighting," as its sometimes called. In addition to teaching point shooting, many of them teach empty hand, knife, and stick techniques that are effective but simple to learn and retain. I've been wanting to learn those methods but unfortunately I haven't been able to find any in my area. You might have better luck.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I may be wrong and this is just my opinion. But I don't think point shooting can be taught. I think people understand the idea but still can't do so effectively.

Some of us can throw a baseball and hit the glove. Some of us will be JUST outside. Same with a football, golf, darts and many other sports. Some of us lack the hand eye coordination.

Three to five yards, yeah maybe they can. And maybe that's all they need in a perfect world. But I've seen people who can't. I think point shooting comes naturally to those who do so effectively.

And as someone else mentioned, some guns are easier to point shoot with. Like the j frame. It was designed to be such a gun and it does very well in that role.

Conversely, I've seen people that could point shoot very well with a j frame out to ten yards. But could not with aimed fire with the same gun.

 

[OKFC05]

Applegates concept has subsequently fallen out of favor - almost no one teaches Point Shooting anymore.

Bull!

In competition point shooting isn't used because the difference between hitting the x-ring and a 10 is a big thing.

IDPA and USPSA are competition, and you can see point shooting in action at any level II or higher match.

Some police training requires using sights at all distances, which may be great for a SWAT team going in with weapons drawn and pointed, but individual shooters required to defend themselves from a surprise attack need a full set of shooting tools in hand to survive. Point shooting up close, front sight flash picture at middle distance, and full sight picture at longer distance, usually when behind cover.
Training selected should be appropriate to the type of defense skills needed, which is why I recommend the NRA Personal Defense courses for the average CHL carrier. Going to a hotshot course and being impressed by super shooters when you barely know how to hold the gun is a waste of money, and you don't learn much you can use, IMHO.

But I don't think point shooting can be taught

I find it easier to teach than the "flash sight picture" using only the front sight. When a newbie starts looking at the sights, he tends to stare and stare long after he should have pulled the trigger. Most people understand that at "front door distance" you have to just look at the target and pull the trigger right now. Point shooting consistently at distances beyond 10 feet does require a lot of practice to build confidence and consistency.

Point shooting is something of a specialty with me, and I even include a brief intro to it in First Steps, having the student fire two quick shots at 5 ft range and surprise themselves with center hits. In USPSA I sometimes catch myself point shooting out past 10yds when I should really start using the front sight!

 

[Hawk 3/21]

Here it is

It seems like every case of SD with a gun will be different, making it necessary for a different response. Having a criminal walk around a corner in your home, and find him feet away, will illicit one action. Having him standing at the end of a long hallway, perhaps another. In some situations all you may have time to do is pull your gun, point, and fire from the hip. In others, there may be time to get a good sight picture. This suggests that we need to incorporate these possibilities in our training/practice and develop the ability to be flexible in adapting responses to situations. It all comes down to being able to shoot as fast and accurately as possible using whatever position the situation demands.

This one really hits it on the head. You never know when or how it will come.

A calm alertness.

Adapt and overcome