Point Shooting for Self Defense - Your Experiences

[RichardK]

Hello All,

I picked up a copy of the June/July 2012 issue of Handguns magazines at my local gun store last week and found the article “Get to the Point” by Bart Skelton to be a very interesting read.

It is about point shooting – the art of firing a handgun quickly with little or no sight picture. According to the author, eyes are focused on the target, with an awareness of the gun barrel and front sight at the lower edge of the field of view.

Since most self-defense situations occur within 20 feet, the use of point shooting allows the handgun to be a position quickly and accurately fired to center of mass while focused on the threat. Again, this is according to Bart Skelton.

Sounds like something worth practicing in addition to the traditional two-handed Weaver stance.

I bought a DVD to learn more about point shooting:

“SHOOT HIM TO THE GROUND Tactical Point Shooting For The 21st Century”
By Matthew Tomkin

And a Kindle book:

“Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back”
By Rex Applegate

Does anyone here on the forum have any experience with this style of defensive shooting and would like to share with us their experiences?

Thank you in advance for sharing.

Richard in Plano, Texas

 

[snakedog]

Point shooting gained new emphasis for me after reading about an NYPD report on shootings. Only 1 in 33 officers discharging their firearms in the line of duty during 2010 used his ( or her?) gunsights according to a NY Times article. That was a real shocker for me.

Target shooting is secondary now, but still necessary in my book especially for inexperienced shooters. Point shooting's probably best practiced from a draw and some ranges, especially indoor, do not allow that kind of firing. And point shooting is no excuse for firing wildly at random.

 

[StatesRightist]

I point shoot out to 15 yds, after that I go to sights. It's a matter of consistent practice and an understanding of your goals. I'm shooting 4-5" groups at that range and better the closer in your get. I have a buddy who's background is Bullseye, he shoots nice little one hole groups at that range, the problem is I've put my 3 in the target before his first round comes off. He can't bring himself to give up grouping for a more street practical style of shooting. Studies have repeatedly shown that sights are rarely used in close quarters.

I do find the term "Point Shooting" as misnomer. Yes, I've practiced raising the gun w/o sights till I can be on target w/o having ever looked at the sights, but I still give the front sight a quick check if I'm over 7yds and in the daylight, to make sure I'm on line. I also practice the drawing motion the same way over and over, so that it's a routine, if it changes it hampers your shooting.

In short, I would say practice it, from the draw all the way to the shot, be prepared for your groups to be much worse than you are used to, but if you commit to it, in most people's cases, in six months you'll be there. There are a few people I've seen that just could not do it, but that's usually a mental issue. I really perfected my techniques during lights only drills as an LEO. In the dark, a guy than can point shoot has a huge advantage over the sight shooter, even with night sights, laser etc.

I will also confess, this was a natural way of shooting to me from day one with a pistol, so maybe I'm the wrong guy to comment on it.

JMO.

 

[Mphstiger1981]

Based upon the information I have seen over the past few years, it seems most self defense instructors and schools are teaching some sort of point shooting in close up situations, with little or no use of the sights at all until the target gets outside arms distance.

Case in point, I recently read a book by Rob Pincus titled "Combat Focus Shooting". Much of what Mr. Pincus teaches in this book, might be categorized as point shooting. I have practiced some of his suggestions with my handguns and found these methods to be easy to learn, fast on target and accurate delivery of the bullet, with a little practice.

 

[Hapworth]

Find me the person who has time to line up and make their shot using a target-style approach and I'll show you someone who has options other than to shoot.

There are always exceptions, but the vast majority of self-defense shootings will involve the point method, whether the shooter has practiced it or not. For that reason alone -- not to mention its greater practicality in a fast-moving situation -- it should be part of one's practice.

And it's not at odds with the Weaver or any other particular stance -- in fact, practiced consistently it blends well with any stance you prefer. It simply means that your stance, muscle-memory and focus on the target line up the shot, not your front and rear sights.

It's instinctive and makes much more sense for real-world use.

This is not to discount traditional sights-based shooting. For the practical shooter, sights-based shooting allows focus on the finer points of marksmanship: breath, grip, point-of-aim and trigger pull; all of these things when worked on collectively and individually will improve overall technique, whatever the shooting style.

I like to open a practice session with a box or so of sights-based shooting, to warm up and to gauge if I'm on that day or if something needs correcting.

Once settled in, I switch to point shooting in a modified Weaver, either from the holster or from the low-ready. My eyes focus only on center mass of the target; aim, as it were, comes from target focus and muscle-memory.

As has already been noted, I think the biggest obstacle to proficiency with point shooting is the target shooter's mentality of wanting to make one ragged little hole in the bullseye. That's fine for competition; get over it for self-defense and learn to measure success in terms of fast (as in "slow is smooth, smooth is fast"), instinctive hits in center mass.

 

[RichardK]

Hello Stats and Snakedog,

True, I think you do need to practice this form of shooting. And yes, a range may have limits on how they allow you to handle the weapon.

Snakedog,

I read somewhere that about 13% of shots fired in a close encounter gunfight hit center mass. I don't remember if this stat is nationwide, FBI only or NYPD.

Statesrightist, wow, 4-5 inch groups at 15 yards! You must practice quite a bit! I will limit myself to the more modest 7 yard line with my 340PD and Sig P238. Maybe I'll try the 15 yarders with my Sig P220 45 ACP.

I find handgun point shooting to be similar to shotgun shooting. Both require focus on the target and just awareness of the barrel in the peripheral vision. The adage "you aim a pistol and you point a shotgun" may be dated. At least for self-defense scenarios.

Thank you for the insights!

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF, Retired 1971-93

 

[StatesRightist]

Hello Stats and Snakedog,

True, I think you do need to practice this form of shooting. And yes, a range may have limits on how they allow you to handle the weapon.

Snakedog,

I read somewhere that about 13% of shots fired in a close encounter gunfight hit center mass. I don't remember if this stat is nationwide, FBI only or NYPD.

Statesrightist, wow, 4-5 inch groups at 15 yards! You must practice quite a bit! I will limit myself to the more modest 7 yard line with my 340PD and Sig P238. Maybe I'll try the 15 yarders with my Sig P220 45 ACP.

I find handgun point shooting to be similar to shotgun shooting. Both require focus on the target and just awareness of the barrel in the peripheral vision. The adage "you aim a pistol and you point a shotgun" may be dated. At least for self-defense scenarios.

Thank you for the insights!

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF, Retired 1971-93

You made an excellent point, I should have qualified my comments with a "using full and mid-sized guns" line. I carry a 642 for a BUG and like you I'm shooting good groups at 7 yds, but the day I point shoot a 4" group at 15yds with my 642 I'll do a little victory dance...lol. That's more like keep them all in the A zone.

 

[Russell Cottle]

It's the way we trained from 0-15yds. No sights til we got to the 25yd barricade. It works well, but you do have to practice.

 

[teezer]

i used to practice this when i started shooting almost 40 years ago and found the most improvement came from the right grips. I tried a bunch of different brands but the finger grove combats always seemed to work best for me and my size hands. Thusly i use Hogue rubber combats on my defensive guns.

no pretty grips for me, i want one that works




.

 

[RichardK]

Russell reiterates a good rule - to be successful at point shooting, you have to practice.

Teezer, good advice on grips. In point shooting, according to its proponents, you must have a "pulverizng" hold on the grip. So you need a good size grip that will allow you to really grip the weapon.

We have to remember, point shooting is essentially one-handed shooting, so a good firm grip is essential.

I just read this in Rex Applegate's book: with point shooting, always use a double tap. Interesting observation. My next trip to the range will be all one-handed double-taps (our range allows double taps, but no quick draws or rapid fire). Two handed shooting is a bonus then; take it when you can, but 90% of the self-defense scenarios do not lend themselves to the Weaver double-handed stance. This is from what I read and hear.

That is why I keeping harping to my son to shoot one-handed with either hand and quit relying on that two-handed Weaver stance. As long as you hit center mass and stop the threat, you won't get extra credit for grouping your double-tap in a 2 inch circle in center mass. Again, from what I read and hear.

This is a most thought provoking discussion on what should we really be practicing at the range for self-defense.

Thank you so far for the different insights, but the general consensus is that point shooting is a worthwhile, life-saving self-defense skill. And practice makes perfect.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF Retired, 1971-93

 

[photoman]

My next trip to the range will be all one-handed double-taps (our range allows double taps, but no quick draws or rapid fire).

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF Retired, 1971-93

If you're shooting at the Bullet Trap, be warned that they do not permit "point" (unsighted) shooting.

Point shooting is a worthwhile endeavour but requires either quality training or a lot of trial and error practice. Follow-up practice is mandatory as point shooting is a skill that is quickly lost without practice.

Also, as someone mentioned, the right grip/fit of the gun is very important for good point shooting.

 

[sipowicz]

It's the only way I practice with my snubs...

 

[GnarlyTwoTrack]

I've seen a good drill to do. Start on your back and do three shots, sit up and do three shots, then to knees 3 shots, then stand three shots. Just don't shoot a knee. Aim between your legs. Cause if someone knocks you down and you have to draw... it's a good one to practice as well.

 

[Moonman]

GnarlyTwoTracks,

Shoot between your legs practice, NEVER. Bad things can happen in the heat of battle.

If on the ground, you've fallen or were knocked down, learn to roll to your side a little and have BOTH LEGS and FEET out of the line of fire as you fire at the target. Cross your legs in the opposite direction of the shooting hand and roll on your side in that direction a little to be clear of the muzzles direction.

Practice shooting with the weak hand only too.

As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says " Never Point The Muzzle At Something You're Not Ready To Destroy."

Many ranges will not LET YOU DRAW FROM A HOLSTER for safety reasons though.

Point Shooting is a very good Defensive Shooting practice.

Some training courses and facilities offer NIGHT SHOOTING, even LIGHTS OUT and Flashlight shooting for defensive situations.

PRACTICE-PRACTICE-PRACTICE is the key, but Safe Practice is paramount to your well being.

Good Practice and Shooting.

 

[OldBull57]

I Bowhunt with a recurve and shoot instinctively. I don't use a sight to throw a baseball or football.

I do those three well because I've done them all for a long time.

Point shooting is no different, practice is the key to success. If you think about it objectively, the sights are just an aide. It's your focus and concentration that put the Arrow, Baseball, Football or Bullet on target.

Every movement we make is an exercise in hand/eye coordination. If you can feed yourself without sticking the fork into your forehead you can point shoot.

 

[KKECK5]

Was sent to a FBI Tactical revolver course back in 1979. Like many have said, as I remember 0-15 yd was draw, point and shoot from the hip. It was timed and you'd need to adjust quickly if the first round was off. From 15 yd out to 50 was aim and shoot, strong hand, then weak hand.

 

[COL Jagdog]

I am currently taking Louisiana's POST course -- the stages of fire shot from the 2 yard line, 4 yard line, and 7 yard line are essentially
point shooting -- and include off-hand shooting and kneeling position.
15 yard and 25 yard (barricade position) emphasize use of sights.
CQB (close quarter battle) in the military also teaches point shooting particularly in clearing buildings/rooms.

 

[RichardK]

Photoman4,

Yes, I shoot at Bullet Trap over on K Avenue. The range stations are definitely not conducive to point shooting. I guess what I'll try is to let my straight arm come down till it touches the bench and bring the arm up and double-tap. Hopefully this is acceptable with the staff, if not, I am sure I'll have someone "tapping" me on the shoulder!

The pistol range at Elm Fork in Dallas has even bigger benches so point shooting practice may be a tad difficult there, plus, it is open on all sides unlike Bullet Trap that has barricades between stations.

The benches at Garland Shooting Range are even higher.

Teezer, I will have to investigate the Hogue Finger Groove Combat Grips and see if they affect the concealability of my 340PD. I have Hogue Bantam grips on it now. Not much of a difference in reduced recoil from the factory grips. But a a finger groove grip would certainly enhance the point shooting. The Alumagrips on my Sig P238 are comfortable even with 380+P ammo. My Sig P220 Combat has a thick rubber grip so it is good to go as well.

An attainable goal for me is to get proficient at point shooting with all three handguns out to 7 yards and then work on proficiency with the P220 out to 15 yards. And use aim shooting out to 25 yards.

KKECK5, FBI course had you shooting pistol out to 50 yards? Wow. My limit with my P220 45ACP is 25 yards, but then I am getting old and can't see the round targets beyond that. Maybe I should stick with the "bad guy" silouette targets from now on!

Excellent discussion on point shooting everyone! This type of shooting is definitely worthwhile to learn and it could very well be a life saver. Too bad more ranges don't have accommodations for point shooting. I guess USPSA shoots use this type of style. I should visit one of the USPSA shoots at Elm Fork sometime just to watch and ask questions.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano TX
USAF, Retired 1971-93

 

[Chuck1217]

Richard, I got that tap on the shoulder at our local range. Was holding the pistol about waist level and pulling up to chest height, or so, to see what I hit. RO showeed me two-hand grip- I think that's going a bit far, and routinely shoot one-handed, but no longer raise&shoot- and they don;t allow double-taps either- 2 seconds between shots.

 

[StatesRightist]

Richard, I got that tap on the shoulder at our local range. Was holding the pistol about waist level and pulling up to chest height, or so, to see what I hit. RO showeed me two-hand grip- I think that's going a bit far, and routinely shoot one-handed, but no longer raise&shoot- and they don;t allow double-taps either- 2 seconds between shots.

I'll give up shooting b/f I put up with those kind of jerks. No double taps...my....