Point Shooting for Self Defense - Your Experiences

[photoman]

The avatar photo that Stu Honea is using is a great example of point shooting. If you can find a large version, it's worth looking at. All the classic guys like Cooper and Weaver are in that photo and all of the guns (except for one I think) are perfectly aligned with the camera as the flash is bouncing off the backs of the empty chambers.

Edit to add photo:

 

[Kanewpadle]

Excellant,sir. You have just described what defensive shooting is all about.When we have to play catch up,point shooting is the life saving skill that will bring us home.Legally!

I'm no genius or expert on the subject my friend. To me, it just makes sense.

 

[teezer]

i'm surprised nobody has brought these up ~~~ Speer plastic bullets

i used these back in the day, and yes they will get you in trouble. Great for point of aim practice and picking off those nasty little Hummels, that the women so cherish.

copied from the Speer site:

"For informal target practice in places with a minimum backstop, finding the proper ammo isn't always easy. Speer® plastic training bullets and cases make the perfect practice load. Reusable molded plastic cases and bullets powered by CCI® large pistol primers provide an accurate and inexpensive alternative. They are designed for 25-foot shooting.

Simply prime the case, insert the plastic wadcutter bullet and you're ready to go. Primer power alone gives the lightweight bullet 300-400 feet/sec velocity. You can stop these in a simple bullet trap made from carpet scraps and cardboard. Bullets can be reused several times.

Bullets and cases are sold separately so you can replace lost or damaged bullets. They are packed 50 bullets or cases to the box. The .45 Auto bullet is designed to readily load in a standard reloadable brass case with a modified flash hole.

This is not loaded ammunition. Primers are not included. Recommended for handguns only. Use only in areas with adequate ventilation. Do not use any propellant powder when assembling these cartridges.
Product Bullet Part # Case Part # Box Count
38 Cal 8510 8515 50
44 Cal 8520 8525 50
45 Cal* 8530 See Note 50

Note: 45 Cal bullet is used with standard brass case.
* For 45 Auto only."

 

[Chuck1217]

I have practiced PS ever since I got into SD, several years now, and one-handed with both hands. I really have enjoyed this post. I don;t practice PS beyond 7 yards much- though I know it's not amazing or anything- it really is disheartening when you go from 3 yards, all in the 8-9-0 rings, to 12 yards and just barely stay on the target.
As we all know, that's why they call it 'practice.'
Tomorrow I'm going to try out an outside range, heard mixed opinions on its safety- so I can double-triple-tap, PS without fear of RO tap on shoulder....
I do manage at my indoor range to go from hi-ready to shoot, when no one is looking, but only 1 at a time.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

It's interesting to note how many people have not practiced shooting at very close distances. And I'm referring to feet rather than yards. I've spoken to several of these folks recently (some had never shot closer than 10 yards) and, when they started shooting at 3 to 6 feet, they were surprised at the difference. We assume that at 3 - 6 feet we can't miss, yet I've seen the first shot or two going to the edge of the target and a near miss. It simply changes the visual point of reference we're so accustomed to. This all boils down to what a number of people have said, practice as you will shoot....and that includes bad breath close.

 

[RichardK]

Stu,

I like your summary:

"Point shooting works in fights period. It worked for the likes of Mr. Bryce, Col. Askins, Jordon, and hundreds of real gunfighters. It's insanely fast. It's more than accurate enough,and it will keep you alive. Your bullet will go where your eyes look. It requires training from someone who understands the concept,but once you get it,you'll never let go. You are focused on the threat (target) and your peripheral vision does the rest."

Perfect.

Steve,

I like your observation:

"It's interesting to note how many people have not practiced shooting at very close distances. And I'm referring to feet rather than yards. I've spoken to several of these folks recently (some had never shot closer than 10 yards) and, when they started shooting at 3 to 6 feet, they were surprised at the difference. We assume that at 3 - 6 feet we can't miss, yet I've seen the first shot or two going to the edge of the target and a near miss. It simply changes the visual point of reference we're so accustomed to."

One weekday went I wanted to go pistol shooting at Elm Fork, the pistol ranges were being used by Federal Air Marshals for target practice (they have an agreement with Elm for a certain day). The targets were at the 3 yard line. Interesting.

Knochen,

Good advice:

"An alternative is to sight down the side of the slide rather than through the sights which gives a much faster POA."

I must try this.

Since discovering point shooting, the handguns I aim shoot are my Sig Mosquito 22LR and my Ruger Single Ten 22LR. Nice weapons for inexpensive target shooting. I practice point shooting (within range limits) with my Sig P238, my Sig P220 and my S&W 340PD, 7 yards and closer, sometimes out to 10 yards with the P220. These three are my conceal carry weapons.

My 340PD is at S&W getting a trigger enhancement - smoothing and lessening the pull.

Excellent discussions everyone!

I am glad we have the good fortune of so many experienced shooters willing to share with us new guys.

Thank you!

Richard in Plano, TX
USAF (retired 1971-93)

 

[Stu Honea]

Photoman44,good observation on the avatar. For those who may not remember or know these guys this is the official photo of the original Combat Masters.,
The photo was taken at the Leatherslaps at Big Bear,California. Pictured L to R are Ray Chapman,Eldon Carl,Thell Reed,Jeff Cooper,and Jack Weaver. I believe Thell Reed may be the only one surviving,but not sure about Eldon Carl as I lost track years ago.
This era represents a pivotal point in shooting history.Cooper was of course a point shooter before he began advocating the use of sights. He used his .45 three times in defense that I know of,but stated in print that he believed he used his sights,but really wasn't sure.
Jack Weaver,of course,known for the invention of the Weaver stance,used his 6 inch K38 in the competitions,the same gun he carried on duty as a Los Angeles Co. Sheriff's Deputy.
Ray Chapman operated his own shooting school at the same time that Cooper's Gunsite Ranch was making a name for itself.
Little Thell Reed was known as the fastest gun alive,and that included single action revolvers.The speed with which he could reload one was almost unbelievable. Great shooting history here.

 

[Stu Honea]

Steve,good post,sir.

teezer,back when all this stuff was going on with the Combat Masters,I used primer powered wax bullets in the basement on paper bad guys.I was using two snub J frames and usually had them both on me. Your post brings back some memories of that time. Geez,I was a youngun' then!
The knife was in vogue in Atlanta in those days,and anytime I used a pay phone I always blocked the folding glass door with my foot.

 

[Stu Honea]

RichardK,it's great to know you are continuing to progress with point shooting. Everyone has the natural abilities,it's just a matter of uncovering them,keeping an open mind,and "just doing it."

 

[Stu Honea]

An alternative is to sight down the side of the slide rather than through the sights which gives a much faster POA. A trainer was telling me about this method, but before he could teach me, he moved away.

Yes.It's actually very fast to index the muzzle using the top edge of the slide,right for a right hander,left for a left hander.
What you don't want is the full side tilt "gangsta" style.
Good post.Sorry I missed it the first time around.

 

[feralmerril]

Somewhere I think I have a old book on point shooting by this guy: Lucky McDaniel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As a boy my dad worked with me. Belive me, dad was good. I bought the book and it helped me. First dad had me shooting tossed bottels and cans and then medicine bottels in the air at the dump with a .22 rifle. I graduated to a early ruger single six and regulary could throw a bottle or can, draw and often hit it. I practiced a lot. No way could I do it now but maybe with practice some of my skill might come back. It`s been 50 years when I was doing it. It`s really instinck shooting. I am a big beliver in it although I havent even tried it in many years. Check out my lead above.

 

[Stu Honea]

That's a great book by the master of instinctive shooting.
Lucky taught the quick kill skills for Gen Mitch WerBell at Sionics in Powder Springs,Ga. We used to refer to it as "Gunpowder Springs." There's another interesting story involving several interesting men.
I believe you could go right back to your previous skillsets with just a little tuning up, sir.
What a great thread! The history is creeping out of the woodwork. Let's keep it going.

 

[Stu Honea]

Guys,since feralmerril brought up Lucky McDaniel,I feel it only proper to add more about this.
There is a man located in AZ by the name of Robin Brown.Most of us just know him as "Brownie". He operated the Threat Focused Forums for several years,of which I was a charter member ,so to speak.
McDaniel never wrote any kind of narrative about Quick Kill,but Brownie trained under him at Powder Springs.Brownie has written the full narrative on this and currently owns the copyright. He is an instructor in these skills and has certified several other people to teach this.
The forum is shut down now,but Brownie is a member of several other forums and will travel to teach these skills to a suitable size class,10 or so,but I don't believe he likes to take on more than 12 students without an assistant.
I know he is an active member on the Florida Concealed Carry forum,so if anyone is interested he can be contacted there.I have his cell number,but I'd prefer not to give it out.
If you decide to look into a class with "B",just tell him "Doc" referrred you,he'll know immediately who you're talking about. No,I don't get any commission,but if you truly want to learn from the best,he is your man,and there seems to be a lot of interest here in these skills.
Thank goodness for sensible people. Hope this is helpful.

ETA: Gents,I just spoke with Brownie on the phone and he advised that anyone who is interested in learning the real material may contact him at [email protected], his personal email.
He is instructing primarily in Florida now,and says with the right range he can handle up to 20 students at a time,
He was telling me he recently took a 20 yo guy who had never held a gun in his life and had him shooting quarters out of the air with a BB gun in less than 20 minutes.
This is the real thing,guys. I will be going down in the spring to run through the course with Brownie and have some fun with him. A good friend,and you will come away as a very dangerous individual to toy with if you take the two day course. This is a two day weekend course and you will learn more than you will learn in a week with anyone else. I do not advocate anything that I do not have full faith in.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

While I was busy trying to control his knife, I clearly saw the front sight almost touch the center of his chest as I was pulling the trigger. I fired twice, and he dropped like his strings were cut. The police later told me that one of the 158 grain JHPs from my .357 shattered a thoracic vertebra. There were two holes in his sternum about an inch apart. That was over 30 years ago.

When we qualify, we do a three shot "speed rock" from the holster at one yard. Everything else is sighted.

ECS

 

[Stu Honea]

While I was busy trying to control his knife, I clearly saw the front sight almost touch the center of his chest as I was pulling the trigger. I fired twice, and he dropped like his strings were cut. The police later told me that one of the 158 grain JHPs from my .357 shattered a thoracic vertebra. There were two holes in his sternum about an inch apart. That was over 30 years ago.

When we qualify, we do a three shot "speed rock" from the holster at one yard. Everything else is sighted.

ECS

Good post. The original concept of the speed rock at bad breath distance employed a backward lean that can cause you to be off balance and possibly fall during a bad breath distance encounter. This can be modified to shooting from retention without the backward lean which can be detrimental if you are knocked down. Good experience speaking here,sir.

 

[Chuck1217]

elmcreek, that's really good info, glad I got to read it. Hope many others do, it kinda hits you- between the eyes- this is serious business.
Wanted to quickly say thet M Ayoob says these type incidents are when a thumbs-down grip is vital. He says that, with your thumbs down, you naturally have a stronger hold on the gun, obviously making it harder for the BG to take it.

 

[Stu Honea]

Guys I apologize for any inconvenience.I had the email for brownie posted wrong in my previous post,but now have that corrected.

 

[Bedrockk]

It's available online in .pdf format here. An online HMTL version with other info is here.

Cheers for the link!

 

[Stu Honea]

Very nice links,indeed.Good shot of Jelly Bryce in the HMTL version.

 

[TAKJR]

"Whatever works" is my motto.

I once sat in a park district toilet on Columbus Drive in Chicago later in the evening (no gas stations nearby and I had to go.....bad...).

I knew I could be in trouble being there. I sat on the toilet (stalls had no doors, go figure) and held my 4" Model 66* in my two hands between my legs. A few seconds later, a large man came up to me, face-to-face. I moved the Model 66* to mid-level, pointing it at him and I stated "Can I help you?"

He left...fast.

Having it in your hands in the first place when needed, or "whatever works" is my motto.

*I was a Cook County Deputy Sheriff at the that time and I could legally carry.

TAKJR