Point Shooting for Self Defense - Your Experiences

[RichardK]

Hello Kelly Green, Silversmok3 and old cop,

All of you have excellent points regarding point shooting and self defense.

I was at Bullet Trap yesterday and took my P238 380ACP to try one-handed double-tap point-shooting at 7 yards. It went remarkably well.

I was able to straighten my arm sufficiently in the stall to practice bringing it up straight (couldn't crouch down, bench is too high). I shot a double-tap (ok at this range) as soon as the barrel was in my lower periphery vision on target center mass.

Sometimes I bent my wrist instead of holding it straight. This resulted in groin shots on the "bad guy" target. Still effective.

I need to concentrate on keeping the wrist locked and the barrel in line with the arm.

My son asked me why I insist on shooting with one hand. I keep telling him there will be a time when you can't use both hands or one arm is disabled or you need the other hand to do something else while you're firing. If I have time, I will use the Weaver, two-handed stance. If I can shoot effectively in self-defense scenarios with one hand, then it is a bonus when I can use two hands.

I also told him why do you think they call them "hand" guns instead of "hands" guns. He wasn't amused .

Next week, I take my Sig P220 Combat 45ACP for point shooting and the week after my 340PD.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF (Retired 1971-93)

 

[andrewb70]

There is a reason that Secamps don't have sites...LOL

Andrew

 

[slodraw]

Hi everyone. Just my two cents. Lots of good information on here. When I was in the army 67-70 when we were on the range learning they taught us point shooting basically. They gave us BB guns. Had someone stand 3' away off to the side. They put a metal disc on their thumb (about the sixe of a quarter) and flipped it into the air. You would raise the gun following the disc whlie looking at the front sight. It sounded crazy when they explained it but we were hitting 8-9 in a row within a day. Then we were on the rangge with M-14's using the same method out to 100 yards. Farther out we used kind on a combination between that and the sights. You didn't have much time if you used the sights though. I've been trying to use this with my 9c just need more practice. Keep your arms sraight. needs more work but it does work. Good shooting everybody.

 

[Chuck1217]

I must not be following correctly- using sights wouldn't be point shooting...altho I couldn't hit a coin in the air with OR without em.

 

[oldbrownhat]

There is an excellent little book called "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes....

It's available online in .pdf format here. An online HMTL version with other info is here.

Darned good read by a couple of guys who worked in a very dangerous place!- and lived to tell about it.

 

[Chuck1217]

Ayoob discusses this in his book COMBAT HANDGUNNERY 6TH EDITION. Was going to try and scan it to attach here, but it's just too long.

 

[ogilvyspecial]

There's a term I've heard more than once dealing
with Point Shooting that goes something like this.

While Point Shooting isn't sighted fire, it is aimed fire.

 

[COL Jagdog]

The majority of POST courses now use the point method from the 2 and
4 yard lines -- sights from 7, 15 and 25 yard lines -- it does work but you have to practice it and practice it very well for it to work. I just completed the Louisiana POST course and we had a very good instructor
who instilled that technique in us.

 

[Stu Honea]

I got dead serious about point shooting or threat focused shooting about 1970. It's a learned skill just like every other shooting technique. It's a rare event for me to use sights for anything inside 21 feet and even farther on many occasions.
F&S and other types of point shooting techniques are the only way to fight with a pistol,IMO.
A red ramp,or gold bead,or night sight,or a fiber optic sight are all good for indexing the end of the barrel in different lighting conditions,but are not necessarily required.
Indexing off the nose makes it all but impossible not to get good hits repeatedly in rapid fire.
Point shooting skills,once understood and developed are easily transferable to aerial shooting.
We get laughed at a lot on the bad *** forums by the latest whiz bangers,but these people refuse to even try to learn these skillsets.
The hottest item these days is RDS on pistols.That junk,just like lasers,will only get in your way and slow you down at true defensive shooting distances.Promoters of the red dots on pistols are getting rich from the enterprise,but there is really nothing new under the sun.
Point shooting works in fights period. It worked for the likes of Mr. Bryce,Col. Askins,Jordon,and hundreds of real gunfighters. It's insanely fast.It's more than accurate enough,and it will keep you alive. Your bullet will go where your eyes look. It requires training from someone who understands the concept,but once you get it,you'll never let go. You are focused on the threat(target) and your peripheral vision does the rest.

 

[Stu Honea]

I must not be following correctly- using sights wouldn't be point shooting...altho I couldn't hit a coin in the air with OR without em.

Sorry,sir,but I beg to differ.YOU could and can do it. If you have normal functional motor skills it will not be a problem. Don't sell yourself short.This is something that is within the grasp of anyone who wants to learn it.

 

[Stu Honea]

There is a reason that Secamps don't have sites...LOL

Andrew

There's a reason why so many people are in love with fixed sighted S&W revolvers,too.

 

[Stu Honea]

Hello All,

I picked up a copy of the June/July 2012 issue of Handguns magazines at my local gun store last week and found the article "Get to the Point" by Bart Skelton to be a very interesting read.

It is about point shooting – the art of firing a handgun quickly with little or no sight picture. According to the author, eyes are focused on the target, with an awareness of the gun barrel and front sight at the lower edge of the field of view.

Since most self-defense situations occur within 20 feet, the use of point shooting allows the handgun to be a position quickly and accurately fired to center of mass while focused on the threat. Again, this is according to Bart Skelton.

Sounds like something worth practicing in addition to the traditional two-handed Weaver stance.

I bought a DVD to learn more about point shooting:

"SHOOT HIM TO THE GROUND Tactical Point Shooting For The 21st Century"
By Matthew Tomkin

And a Kindle book:

"Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back"
By Rex Applegate

Does anyone here on the forum have any experience with this style of defensive shooting and would like to share with us their experiences?

Thank you in advance for sharing.

Richard in Plano, Texas

Matt Tempkin is an excellant instructor and shooter in the F&S and Applegate and has actually trained under Applegate in years past.You'll have made an excellant choice in studying his works.

 

[Stu Honea]

I point shoot out to 15 yds, after that I go to sights. It's a matter of consistent practice and an understanding of your goals. I'm shooting 4-5" groups at that range and better the closer in your get. I have a buddy who's background is Bullseye, he shoots nice little one hole groups at that range, the problem is I've put my 3 in the target before his first round comes off. He can't bring himself to give up grouping for a more street practical style of shooting. Studies have repeatedly shown that sights are rarely used in close quarters.

I do find the term "Point Shooting" as misnomer. Yes, I've practiced raising the gun w/o sights till I can be on target w/o having ever looked at the sights, but I still give the front sight a quick check if I'm over 7yds and in the daylight, to make sure I'm on line. I also practice the drawing motion the same way over and over, so that it's a routine, if it changes it hampers your shooting.

In short, I would say practice it, from the draw all the way to the shot, be prepared for your groups to be much worse than you are used to, but if you commit to it, in most people's cases, in six months you'll be there. There are a few people I've seen that just could not do it, but that's usually a mental issue. I really perfected my techniques during lights only drills as an LEO. In the dark, a guy than can point shoot has a huge advantage over the sight shooter, even with night sights, laser etc.

I will also confess, this was a natural way of shooting to me from day one with a pistol, so maybe I'm the wrong guy to comment on it.

JMO.

SR,you're the RIGHT guy to comment on it.
I wish we could get more people away from the gadgetry and get them started using these life saving techniques.Your input is excellant.
I mentioned in the previous post the RDS's and their current popularity. I think that this is a step in the direction of losing sight of the mission of the defensive pistol/revolver. These are great on a carbine or rifle,but the defensive pistol is a different animal all together.We need to keep our priorities in order and use these various weapons in the roles they are intended for and stop trying to make sonething they are not and were never intended to be. Understanding that marketing these concepts brings in money and moves the game,but the proven techniques are what saves lives.

 

[RichardK]

Hello All,

Just watched that DVD on point shooting:

"SHOOT HIM TO THE GROUND Tactical Point Shooting For The 21st Century" by Matthew Temkin

Learned quite a few things in the 1 hour 15 minute presentation, including the difference in using semi-autos and revolvers in close-up combat shooting scenarios.

Interesting drills were presented, but most cannot be done in an indoor range. You need an open, outdoor range to adequately practice most of the drills. I did the best I could with an unloaded (thrice checked) 340PD in the living room dry fire point shooting inanimate objects.

The extreme close quarter drills were interesting; probably more suited for LE and military.

The DVD definitely shows how to point shoot with more than just a straight arm and one hand. It does emphasize one-handed shooting, but does not discount a two-handed grip when feasible.

Now to find a range which will let me do that type of rapid fire point shooting somewhere here in North Texas .

Richard in Plano, Texas
USAF (Retired 1971-93)

 

[Chuck1217]

I was just doing some self=deprecating humor. I'm sure just about anyone could do it with enough practice, and sounds like fun trying. But for now I need to work some other stuff. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

 

[Stu Honea]

Gotcha,Chuck.

Richard,I didn't get that DVD from Matt,but I've seen some excerpts from it. The "zipper" is a great drill to run with a wheelgun or auto,and of course would be applicable in a close fast encounter.
One of my favorite things is running two guns on two targets simultaneously using peripheral vision to get good hits on both. Probably not very practical for real world in most cases,but you never know, and it's nice to know the ability is there.Plus it's just plain fun.Keeps your weak hand tuned,too.
What you are doing with the dry fire in the house is a great aid and a fast way to build on the hand/eye coordination,and muscle memory. My wife finally got used to it and doesn't duck now or cover her ears when I draw.
Shooting from retention,1/2 and 3/4 hip is an important part of the skillsets. Keep up the good work,sir.

 

[grampa p]

I have had some training with a point shooting method. In what would be a self defense situation I think it is what you instinctively would do. Index your body toward the threat, elbows close to body, point your firearm and pull the trigger. You are going to hit the threat no doubt about it.

 

[Knochen]

An alternative is to sight down the side of the slide rather than through the sights which gives a much faster POA. A trainer was telling me about this method, but before he could teach me, he moved away.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If you are confronted with having use your gun while defending yourself, you will probably have to point shoot.

And you may not even remember doing it.

We could discuss this for years. But the reality is that as concealed carriers, we are already behind the curve. Already behind the eight ball.

Before we draw from concealment, we must first indentify the threat and decide quickly if that person needs to be shot.

We don't have the legal ability to produce a gun in anticipation or preparation of a lethal threat. We must WAIT causing us to waste valuable time.

Whatever method of point shooting you choose, practice it because you WILL need it.

 

[Stu Honea]

If you are confronted with having use your gun while defending yourself, you will probably have to point shoot.

And you may not even remember doing it.

We could discuss this for years. But the reality is that as concealed carriers, we are already behind the curve. Already behind the eight ball.

Before we draw from concealment, we must first indentify the threat and decide quickly if that person needs to be shot.

We don't have the legal ability to produce a gun in anticipation or preparation of a lethal threat. We must WAIT causing us to waste valuable time.

Whatever method of point shooting you choose, practice it because you WILL need it.

Excellant,sir. You have just described what defensive shooting is all about.When we have to play catch up,point shooting is the life saving skill that will bring us home.Legally!