I was just wondering what every-ones views were on single handed point shooting. It seems to me that in a self-defense situation more than likely one would be in a situation where you are not going to have time to get into a "weaver stance" or a modification of it. Does anyone practice one hand shooting or point shooting? Just wondering because I know you guys are probably more knowledgeable on the subject and I haven't seen much written about it.
-
Forum Update: We've upgraded the software to improve security, performance, and the overall experience.
👉 Read why we made the change | Support the Forum
Point Shooting
- Thread starter maddog909
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Pasifikawv
Member
Point shooting and one-hand shooting are not necesarily the same. Point shooting refers to "instinctive" shooting: i.e. point and shoot.
I do occasionally practice point shooting - usually from a combat/triangle stance with both hands. I sometime even put a bit of tape over the sights to keep from using them. It makes me focus on other elements of my shooting technique other than sight aliagnment/sight picture. It helps develop consistancy, accuracy and speed in my shooting technique.
I will also occasionally practice one-hand shooting as well - both left and right. One never knows when a hand may be injured and one-hand shooting is the only option.
I do occasionally practice point shooting - usually from a combat/triangle stance with both hands. I sometime even put a bit of tape over the sights to keep from using them. It makes me focus on other elements of my shooting technique other than sight aliagnment/sight picture. It helps develop consistancy, accuracy and speed in my shooting technique.
I will also occasionally practice one-hand shooting as well - both left and right. One never knows when a hand may be injured and one-hand shooting is the only option.
cowboy117
Member
I practice point shooting almost all of the time.
Point Shooting - Colonel Rex Applegate - Sykes - Fairbairn - bobtuley.com Real World Gunfights Happen At Close Range
Point Shooting - Colonel Rex Applegate - Sykes - Fairbairn - bobtuley.com Real World Gunfights Happen At Close Range
I use point shooting a lot on close targets in IDPA and IPSC, and teach "no sights, front sight, both sights" as the distance increases.
One-handed is a separate skill, and a competitor needs a full set of skills, many of which are useful in real life.
The current idea on stance is that your upper body makes a stable platform and your feet go where they have to be. This is usually referred to as a competitors stance or modified isoceles, and your feet may be walking instead of planted.
If you have a chance, suggest taking a course such as the NRA Defense courses, and shooting some IDPA matches for simulated practice. Besides being a lot of fun, you might learn something from the more experienced shooters.
One-handed is a separate skill, and a competitor needs a full set of skills, many of which are useful in real life.
The current idea on stance is that your upper body makes a stable platform and your feet go where they have to be. This is usually referred to as a competitors stance or modified isoceles, and your feet may be walking instead of planted.
If you have a chance, suggest taking a course such as the NRA Defense courses, and shooting some IDPA matches for simulated practice. Besides being a lot of fun, you might learn something from the more experienced shooters.
flop-shank
US Veteran
In a recent podcast at proarmspodcast.com , Chicago cop and multi-gunfight veteran Bob Stasch claimed that in his fourteen gunfights, there were only a couple of times that he had time to assume a two handed grip in a proper stance.
Since hearing that podcast, I do at least half of my practice one handed, whether it's dry firing, or burning live ammo. I also practice a lot of weak handed shooting as well (one and two handed grips), particularly when practicing with guns that I normally carry as a BUG on the weak side.
Since hearing that podcast, I do at least half of my practice one handed, whether it's dry firing, or burning live ammo. I also practice a lot of weak handed shooting as well (one and two handed grips), particularly when practicing with guns that I normally carry as a BUG on the weak side.
ogilvyspecial
Member
Point Shooting is my primary training method and I find using one hand easier than using both, especially on multiple targets. Even with full power rounds, like the .357 Magnum I don't seem to have any problems with recoil, which might be due, in part, by my use of a convulsive grip when firing. I could see where some may have to rely on a two handed grip, for any number of reasons, so your mileage may vary..........
photoman
Member
If you ever end up in a gun fight, two things are highly likely. First, the range will be VERY close. Second, the event will happen VERY fast. Neither of those lead me to believe that the classic "stand and deliver" Weaver front sight shooting method will produce satisfactory results in that situation.
There is a place for both sighted shooting and instinctive shooting. If the situation warrants, the sights should be used. On the other hand, with proper training and practice, it's downright amazing what a shooter can do without using the sights and that is a very valuable skill to have in the toolbox.
So... I guess what I'm saying is, be good at both and know which one to use at the right time.
There is a place for both sighted shooting and instinctive shooting. If the situation warrants, the sights should be used. On the other hand, with proper training and practice, it's downright amazing what a shooter can do without using the sights and that is a very valuable skill to have in the toolbox.
So... I guess what I'm saying is, be good at both and know which one to use at the right time.
You can do very good work point shooting if you practice it enough. I believe it was Bill Jordan who was able to hit an aspirin at 10 feet, from the hip.
The best way to start learning how to do this is with a BB gun which has no sights. Get a big target, concentrate your focus on the target with the barrel in your peripheral vision--no aiming, and shoot. Do this a half dozen times, then go look and see where the group is. You will subconsciously adjust for any POI misplacement the next time you shoot until you get to the point that you can just look at the target and the gun will come to the correct position to hit it. It's pure muscle memory and not all that different from skeet or trap shooting.
It is not a one-lesson-and-you-will-be-good type of thing. It takes a while. A while=several thousand rounds.
Another thing--concentrate on a specific part of the target. If you're shooting at a 2" diameter circle, concentrate on the innermost 1/4" of that circle and try to hit it.
The best way to start learning how to do this is with a BB gun which has no sights. Get a big target, concentrate your focus on the target with the barrel in your peripheral vision--no aiming, and shoot. Do this a half dozen times, then go look and see where the group is. You will subconsciously adjust for any POI misplacement the next time you shoot until you get to the point that you can just look at the target and the gun will come to the correct position to hit it. It's pure muscle memory and not all that different from skeet or trap shooting.
It is not a one-lesson-and-you-will-be-good type of thing. It takes a while. A while=several thousand rounds.
Another thing--concentrate on a specific part of the target. If you're shooting at a 2" diameter circle, concentrate on the innermost 1/4" of that circle and try to hit it.
Last edited:
I've studied point shooting pretty extensively, to the point where I feel the "Fairbairn and Sykes" method is completely different than the "Applegate" method. There are a whole bunch of shooting techniques that are clumped into the same "point shooting" catagory and they are not all the same. In fact some of them aren't even related other than the fact that the sights aren't used. In fact there are some "point shooting" techniques where the sights are actually used in one way or another.
I've also found that practicing certain techniques actually hurt when trying to change to a different position or technique. And two handed vs. one handed shooting is one of these.
I use to practice all the popular "combat shooting" techniques but found they aren't all they're claimed to be. Now I prefer a one handed natural style based on hand/eye coordination instead of a two handed competition technique based on muscle memory.
I've also found that practicing certain techniques actually hurt when trying to change to a different position or technique. And two handed vs. one handed shooting is one of these.
I use to practice all the popular "combat shooting" techniques but found they aren't all they're claimed to be. Now I prefer a one handed natural style based on hand/eye coordination instead of a two handed competition technique based on muscle memory.
Last edited:
tazcollins
Member
When I go to the range I really don't use a perfect sight picture. It's kind of like holding the revolver slightly eye level when shooting two or one handed. I just let everything work together, instincts, vision, trigger control, etc. It's hard to explain but the bullets go where I want them to. But I have been shooting revolvers for forty-five years. I do the same thing single handed with both hands. I'll practice double taps all three ways too. Just keeping everything semi tuned. Like it's been said, you never know how you'll be shooting. TC
I try to do more point shooting now than I did in years past. As someone has said, in an emergency there will be little time or distance to utilize sights so it behooves us to be able to function with that in mind.
When I was still working, we had to qualify annually (not often enough, but that is another story). The pressure was on you to pass, so I may say that this tended to encourage the use of the sights even at distances where you would obviously not have time to do so in a confrontation. Also, the targets could have been turned to face you for brief periods during which you had to get your shots off but since so many people had trouble qualifying when that was done the solution arrived at was to stop turning the targets.
Only a very few of us practiced on a more or less regular basis between annual qualification (doing point shooting and otherwise), and the results typically showed it.
I was interested to see that the author in the attached link thought so highly of the 2" M36 for point shooting. I have not necessarily found that to be true for me: the feel of a longer barrel seems to help me out, although a dab of white paint on the front sight is a useful modification. However, for some reason I find that I can do a good job with my Kel-Tec P3AT, which is just as well since the sights are nearly too skimpy to see when you are taking your time.....forget about finding them in a rush. I suppose that it is so small that my grip overpowers any movement and the long trigger pull helps to keep it under tension; I just don't know but it is surprising how well it works out.
When I was still working, we had to qualify annually (not often enough, but that is another story). The pressure was on you to pass, so I may say that this tended to encourage the use of the sights even at distances where you would obviously not have time to do so in a confrontation. Also, the targets could have been turned to face you for brief periods during which you had to get your shots off but since so many people had trouble qualifying when that was done the solution arrived at was to stop turning the targets.
Only a very few of us practiced on a more or less regular basis between annual qualification (doing point shooting and otherwise), and the results typically showed it.
I was interested to see that the author in the attached link thought so highly of the 2" M36 for point shooting. I have not necessarily found that to be true for me: the feel of a longer barrel seems to help me out, although a dab of white paint on the front sight is a useful modification. However, for some reason I find that I can do a good job with my Kel-Tec P3AT, which is just as well since the sights are nearly too skimpy to see when you are taking your time.....forget about finding them in a rush. I suppose that it is so small that my grip overpowers any movement and the long trigger pull helps to keep it under tension; I just don't know but it is surprising how well it works out.
i am right hand and right eye dominate.
my gun range practice is single handed grip, DAO, exclusively..........60% left hand, 40% right hand.
point and shoot with the S&W J frame snub nose.
target sight with the S&W K frame 4".
my gun range practice is single handed grip, DAO, exclusively..........60% left hand, 40% right hand.
point and shoot with the S&W J frame snub nose.
target sight with the S&W K frame 4".
Last edited:
All of the guys I know who are multiple gunfights winners advocate the use of the front sight, and both hands if you have the opportunity (which you may not due to holding a flashlight, etc)..
Evan Marshall and Jim Cirillo alone have more than 30 gun fights between them.
I'm a firm believer due to personal experience and training that this is the way to go.
Evan Marshall and Jim Cirillo alone have more than 30 gun fights between them.
I'm a firm believer due to personal experience and training that this is the way to go.
David Sinko
Member
The only advantage to unaimed fire is pure speed and this is accomplished as soon as the gun clears the holster. The distance must be very close. If you take the extra tenths of a second to go into some kind of crouch or grab the gun with both hands, you may as well bring the gun up to eye level and use the sights.
Some may disagree with this, but I consider point shooting to be hip shooting. If I am going to be shooting without looking at the sights, it will be as soon as the gun clears leather.
Aimed fire at high speed is possible. I think Cirillo always used the sights and I know he often had to do some very tight shooting. The best and most capable hip and point shooters have invested a tremendous amount of time and (others') ammunition in their quest to be able to do what they do. I believe that aimed fire will be the answer for the vast majority of us.
Dave Sinko
Some may disagree with this, but I consider point shooting to be hip shooting. If I am going to be shooting without looking at the sights, it will be as soon as the gun clears leather.
Aimed fire at high speed is possible. I think Cirillo always used the sights and I know he often had to do some very tight shooting. The best and most capable hip and point shooters have invested a tremendous amount of time and (others') ammunition in their quest to be able to do what they do. I believe that aimed fire will be the answer for the vast majority of us.
Dave Sinko
Wyatt Earp was quoted as saying that you should take your time when shooting, then clarified that by saying that you should only take as much time as you need to ensure a hit with the first shot.
I'm a firm believer in point shooting, but that doesn't mean to practice one position only. Several posters stated that speed is important, and it is so shooting from the hip is a good idea. However not all shootings occur at arms length and there may be times when you may need to pull the gun up a little higher to say maybe waist level, chest lever or even eye level. In cases where you may need to shoot further than you have trained to point shoot at you may even need to use your sights.
Contrary to popular belief, real point shooting doesn't require a lot of ammunition to learn. Like I said earlier there are many techniques that are called point shooting and some of them are just as useless as many of the aimed techniques that are being taught now. However real point shooting was called "point shooting" because it involves pointing your gun just like you point your finger, and with a good revolver you may not need to make a lot of adjustments like you probably will with an auto.
Fairbairn and Sykes researched over 600 shootings when they developed their techniques and they found the exact same thing you would find if you examined 600 shootings involving people trained in "modern techniques". It's not as outdated as our new age of experts want you to believe.
I'm a firm believer in point shooting, but that doesn't mean to practice one position only. Several posters stated that speed is important, and it is so shooting from the hip is a good idea. However not all shootings occur at arms length and there may be times when you may need to pull the gun up a little higher to say maybe waist level, chest lever or even eye level. In cases where you may need to shoot further than you have trained to point shoot at you may even need to use your sights.
Contrary to popular belief, real point shooting doesn't require a lot of ammunition to learn. Like I said earlier there are many techniques that are called point shooting and some of them are just as useless as many of the aimed techniques that are being taught now. However real point shooting was called "point shooting" because it involves pointing your gun just like you point your finger, and with a good revolver you may not need to make a lot of adjustments like you probably will with an auto.
Fairbairn and Sykes researched over 600 shootings when they developed their techniques and they found the exact same thing you would find if you examined 600 shootings involving people trained in "modern techniques". It's not as outdated as our new age of experts want you to believe.
J.P.60
US Veteran
There's no magic to point shooting... it's all in the practice, as usual. Think of this - when carrying a flashlight, turned off, when you wish to illuminate something - do you have to aim it or move onto your target? Probably not... you're probable real close. All you have to do with your sidearm is what you do with your flashlight - point and shoot. Practice with your gun will bring your point closer to dead-on and that takes a bit of time.
Early in my career one handed shooting was the norm. Before that in the military handgun shooting was one handed.
I practice all positions of defensive shooting,including close range point and fire.
Jimmy
I practice all positions of defensive shooting,including close range point and fire.
Jimmy
Thanks guys, for the great advice and knowledge. I've always thought that much of the shooting I've been doing was great for basic targer practice but felt it was probably lacking in a real self defense situation, especially where time and accuracy are major elements. I know what I'm going to be practicing this weekend.
M falcon
Member
Point shooting is as easy as pointing you're finger, I mostly do it and thought my children and wife to shoot that way, if you need a gun, you will not have time to aim, aiming is for target shooting and hunting.
M Falcon
M Falcon
... and any other situation where you really need to hit your target.
Fairbairn and Sykes were dealing with a lowest common denominator situation, with a very limited budget and resources. That they managed to make it work is a testement to leadership and mindset, not because their program was the best way to train with a pistol.
Would anyone choose as a primary duty/carry pistol a Colt .380, loaded with ball ammo, and the magazines pinned to hold only 6 rounds, and carry this pistol chamber empty in a flap holster?
Nope, didn't think so. If that is the case, then why would anyone copy the rest of the F&S program?
Similar threads
