Point Shooting

cs, you obviously aren't seeing the forest through the trees. I have responded to every thing you just said in previous posts, except for the part you completely misunderstood, and I'm not going around this bush again.

When you speak in absolutes, you will almost always be wrong in one way or the other. That is why I took exception to your statement,

"I'm not saying that you can't achieve speed and accuracy by using the sights, I'm saying you can achieve greater speed with an acceptable loss of accuracy by not using them."

Beyond that, I now believe you and I are pretty much on the same page with this issue.
 
Jellybean; aren't seeing the forest through the trees...and I'm not going around this bush again.[/QUOTE said:
Jellybean,

When the big surprize comes and you feel like you just got hit with a cattle prod
and your clawin' at that iron trying to clear that leather in time, just tryin' to stay alive...
Those that haven't tasted the copper just don't get it.

I think you & I would be trying to shoot back sights or no sights.

IMHO,

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
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When you speak in absolutes, you will almost always be wrong in one way or the other. That is why I took exception to your statement,

"I'm not saying that you can't achieve speed and accuracy by using the sights, I'm saying you can achieve greater speed with an acceptable loss of accuracy by not using them."

Beyond that, I now believe you and I are pretty much on the same page with this issue.

cs, if that's the only thing between us right now maybe we can move forward here. I'm not talking about a competition between point shooters and non shooters. I'm sure there are point shooter that will beat sight shooters in any given game just as there will be sight shooters that will beat point shooters in the same game, it all depends on the individual shooters ability.

The statement you quoted above is about one individual, any individual. If he is able to draw and shoot a target a number of times in a certain amount of time while using his sights he will be able to draw and shoot the same target the same number of times in less time by using point shooting simply because he won't have to move his arm as far, we are talking fractions of a second here but that may be all he needs, or has. Yes he will need to practice this and will probably never be as accurate as he is with his sights, but he only needs enough accuracy to make vital hits. I'm not saying this is the best way to shoot in all circumstances either as their will always be differing circumstances. I'm not trying to insult you but I have found that competition shooters have a problem with this concept because it goes against everything they have learned about shooting, but shooting against someone for points is different than shooting at someone for survival.
 
Dave,
You got that right. I'm going to do what I have to even if it means poking my finger in his eye to give me time to shoot him.

I used to keep up with all the new and improved techniques. Then, I was fortunate enough to have my rude awakening on a FATS machine, although it took me twice to understand what was happening, instead of a real life or death shooting situation. I finally realized there was a serious problem and it wasn't just a bad day at the range so I started from square one. All those old guys, no offense, that everyone says are outdated or old school had learned what they know from guys that had seen the elephant, as they say, or saw it themselves in some cases. What all these combat experts that have never shot off of a controlled range are spreading around doesn't belong on the street, it belongs on my garden. The bad guys that are running around shooting people have never even heard of IPSC or IDPA and don't play those games.

Good Luck Dave, and shoot straight.
 
cs, if that's the only thing between us right now maybe we can move forward here. I'm not talking about a competition between point shooters and non shooters. I'm sure there are point shooter that will beat sight shooters in any given game just as there will be sight shooters that will beat point shooters in the same game, it all depends on the individual shooters ability.

I agree. We all learn and develop skills at a little different pace, and some of us are just naturally better at some things than others.

The statement you quoted above is about one individual, any individual. If he is able to draw and shoot a target a number of times in a certain amount of time while using his sights he will be able to draw and shoot the same target the same number of times in less time by using point shooting simply because he won't have to move his arm as far, we are talking fractions of a second here but that may be all he needs, or has. Yes he will need to practice this and will probably never be as accurate as he is with his sights, but he only needs enough accuracy to make vital hits. I'm not saying this is the best way to shoot in all circumstances either as their will always be differing circumstances.

I often tell my students that there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution to every tactical problem. Life threatening incidents are not static; they happen dynamically and generally play out very quickly. As I mentioned earlier, it is for this reason that our training should be multi-faceted and lend itself to enabling us to exercise flexibility in a dynamic incident. No defensive shooter's skillset would be complete without being able to make those fast, in your face, must do it now without the aid of sights or a sight picture shots.

I'm not trying to insult you but I have found that competition shooters have a problem with this concept because it goes against everything they have learned about shooting, but shooting against someone for points is different than shooting at someone for survival.

The thing is, I am not a competition shooter. I consider myself a student of combatives, and more specifically, a student of efficiency as it relates to combat with a handgun. If tactics or techniques can't stand up to the realities of FoF combatives, then they generally aren't of much value on the street.
 
In my experience hip shooting only works at touching range, and not always well there.

Walking one's rounds into the target only works when shooting cooperative cardboard, or with belt fed automatic weapons.

Gut shooting bad guys can not even come close to being counted on to stop a fight.

I can think of three different bad guys gut shot with all 9 pellets from a OO buck round at close range that weren't impressed at all.

With all due respect to the gentleman in the video posted elsewhere, I believe that his shooting in the video, at that distance, could have been done both faster and more accurately if he had both hands on the gun and used the sights.
 
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Jeff Cooper had talked about a combat triangle, or something tacticooly trianglish like that, where he claimed power speed, and accuracy were all equally important. Well, I believed it for a long time, until I found out how much he really knew about real gunfighting,


But first, if I may since you have obviously collected a lot of data, do you happen to have statistical information for the agencies, such as the LAPD, that push for sighted fire on the percentage of officers that are shot without ever drawing their weapon or that did draw it but never fired it compared to agencies that don't push it so hard? And also the percentage of officers that are taught to use their sights that actually do? Most of the agencies I've dealt with teach sighted fire at every distance but the officers themselves that have been in actual shootings admit that they didn't use them during the event, even though they intended to do so. The FBI doesn't collect all this information and it's hard to find.
Thank you.


Actually, the FBI summary of LEOs killed each year would have the info as to whether the officer was killed with his gun in his holster, returned fire but was still killed, etc.

Sighted fire has nothing to do with a quick and efficient draw stroke.


Jeff Cooper killed at least three men in combat, at close range, using a handgun, one of them had just opened fire on him with a sub-machine gun. That gives him far more experience than the average guy.
He also made a study of debriefing as many other combat veterans as he could, and had quite a few graduates of his school report back using his teaching successfully.

I never met the man, nor attended his school, but to say he didn't know anything about gunfighting is simply not true.



To throw even another variable into the mix, it is completely possible for an officer to have in fact used sighted fire and have no memory of the sights, just as they often have no memory of hearing their gun go off, having reloaded after the fact, etc.

I met a SWAT officer once who was involved in an entry where they were ambushed. This officer only remembers the point man going down from multiple leg hits, and having trouble getting a grip on the drag strap on the injured officer's vest to get him out of the line of fire.
This officer had not memory until well after the fact that he had emptied a 30 round mag on an MP5 and reloaded, shooting the bad guy numerous times.

Some info on memory distortion and other factors in deadly force events here;

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/stressreactions.pdf



Another study by the Force Science folks here on gaze patterns;

http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews...pattern-findings-mean-for-your-training-more/


With this clip from the article;

"Through innumerable repetitions they have developed a highly accurate feel—a strong kinesthetic sense—for raising their gun to a proper alignment without consciously thinking about it or making a pronounced visual or attentional shift to it. If you ran a laser beam from their eye to the target, it would shine right through their sights.

"Careful sight alignment was an important step in starting them toward that point of excellence. Experience and intensive training are ultimately what brought them there. Over a long time, they were able to transition from one emphasis to another. Yet even at their exceptional performance level, referencing the sights in some manner, however fleetingly or peripherally, was still part of their response in the type of rapidly unfolding encounter designed for this study."
 
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An old fella who taught me a lot about shooting used to do a demo in which he would place an empty Coke can on the top of his outstretched right hand. At a signal, he would draw his 2" model 10 from a belt holster using his right hand and shoot the can before it hit the ground. I saw him do this many times, usually on a bet.

Try that using aimed fire and let us know how it works out.
 
Next time I get attacked by a Coke can I hope that guy is around to bail me out.
 
Next time I get attacked by a Coke can I hope that guy is around to bail me out.
Well, if a Coke can did attack you, he could indeed handle it, if you couldn't. Probably anything a lot bigger and meaner, too.
 
The thing is, I am not a competition shooter. I consider myself a student of combatives, and more specifically, a student of efficiency as it relates to combat with a handgun. If tactics or techniques can't stand up to the realities of FoF combatives, then they generally aren't of much value on the street.

I guess that's what I used to be, until I found out most of the instructors were fakes. That was when I found the best way to train was to just shoot the SOB and not waste my time with fancy techniques, abbreviations, words and what have you. The tactics and techniques that you learn may do just fine, until you run up against someone that just knows how to shoot. I have yet to see a training program where someone in the crowd couldn't show the instructor up at their own game that they have practiced over and over again. Or shown that their new way of doing things is actually an old idea that never worked that well before. Am I'm happy to say that for the last few years of my career, it was me.

To be honest CS, I used to be alot like you and worshipped some of the instructors I'd had, until I learned the truth about them and a little more about real gunfighting. I wouldn't let a guy that had never replaced a light switch tell me how to wire my house and I'm through letting guys that were never in a gunfight tell me how to win one. I'll learn my own way to do it. But then, it's not just what works, but what works for each individual. Some guys just aren't coordinated enough to point shoot or do other types of shooting they don't understand , and a lot of them just don't seem to care enough to try.
 
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tpd223,
Thanks, but the LEOKA publications I got from the FBI didn't break the information down by dept. or give any information about the type of training or qualification courses used by each dept.

I've learned a lot about reading about gun experts, and non-experts too. I've spent a lot of ammunition to find that most of them are just trying to make a name for themselves that they don't deserve. And this applies to point shooting experts too. I watched a video with two of the biggest names in modern point shooting that looked more like they were dancing than they were shooting to save their lives. It was all pretty sad, stupid and funny at the same time.

I've read some stuff from Jeff Cooper and used to have a video of his. I recall him saying he learned everything he knew about modern combat from shooting action pistol type games. Also, I've known many men that killed people in combat that don't go around calling themselves experts with anything. He was the first writer I thought was a God, and one of the last I accepted as a phony. I found that before I believe anything from anyone anymore, I will try it out for myself first, which is how I found about him.

I don't agree with your thoughts, but I admire your thinking.
 
practice,practice,practice and hope you have the will to kill if and when the time ever comes
stanc
 
I guess that's what I used to be, until I found out most of the instructors were fakes. That was when I found the best way to train was to just shoot the SOB and not waste my time with fancy techniques, abbreviations, words and what have you. The tactics and techniques that you learn may do just fine, until you run up against someone that just knows how to shoot. I have yet to see a training program where someone in the crowd couldn't show the instructor up at their own game that they have practiced over and over again. Or shown that their new way of doing things is actually an old idea that never worked that well before. Am I'm happy to say that for the last few years of my career, it was me.

To be honest CS, I used to be alot like you and worshipped some of the instructors I'd had, until I learned the truth about them and a little more about real gunfighting. I wouldn't let a guy that had never replaced a light switch tell me how to wire my house and I'm through letting guys that were never in a gunfight tell me how to win one. I'll learn my own way to do it. But then, it's not just what works, but what works for each individual. Some guys just aren't coordinated enough to point shoot or do other types of shooting they don't understand , and a lot of them just don't seem to care enough to try.

I think you have a lot of nerve to pretend you know what I'm like or act like you know who I "worship". You have no idea who I've trained with, how I've trained, what kind of situations I have or haven't been in, or anything about what techniques I advocate or deplore. In my experience, most guys that go around on internet message boards bragging about all of the "gunfights" they've been in are usually full of horse manure. I'm not saying you are or you aren't, but some of the statements you've made certainly seem suspect. Guys that brag about how great they are, are usually the first to be out-shot by their wives or girlfriends when they get to the range, and they are usually rife with excuses; blaming their gun, their ammo, their equipment, or anything else they can think of to deflect fault away from their poor attitude.

I've met a heck of a lot of very accomplished shooters, and I've yet to meet any (other than on the internet) who believed he/she already knew it all, or that he/she could never learn anything useful from anyone else. I've also met several REAL gunfight survivors that were very inexperienced shooters and certainly not in any position to teach others their "magic" techniques; most of them, in fact, were taking training with various instructors so they would be more prepared if they were ever faced with an armed deadly threat again. Surviving a gunfight certainly does not, in and of itself, qualify you as an expert in gunfighting or self defense.
 
I guess that's what I used to be, until I found out most of the instructors were fakes. That was when I found the best way to train was to just shoot the SOB and not waste my time with fancy techniques, abbreviations, words and what have you. The tactics and techniques that you learn may do just fine, until you run up against someone that just knows how to shoot. I have yet to see a training program where someone in the crowd couldn't show the instructor up at their own game that they have practiced over and over again. Or shown that their new way of doing things is actually an old idea that never worked that well before. Am I'm happy to say that for the last few years of my career, it was me.

To be honest CS, I used to be alot like you and worshipped some of the instructors I'd had, until I learned the truth about them and a little more about real gunfighting. I wouldn't let a guy that had never replaced a light switch tell me how to wire my house and I'm through letting guys that were never in a gunfight tell me how to win one. I'll learn my own way to do it. But then, it's not just what works, but what works for each individual. Some guys just aren't coordinated enough to point shoot or do other types of shooting they don't understand , and a lot of them just don't seem to care enough to try.

Well sir, since you have it all figured out, why don't you enlighten the rest of us?
 
And some handguns don't have sights at all. But if yours does, learn how to use it in every way you can. Just because they are there doesn't mean they have to be used, but they add to the versatility by making a gun that was intended strictly for close quarters gunfighting a potential fighting tool out to say 100 yards or more. I just had to throw that one in there.

Now I know your crazy. Why in the world would I fight with a handgun at 100 yards?

I've read all of your posts in this thread and you make no sense at all.

You come across as another keyboard commando.

Studying this and that. Reading this and that, will never take the place of hands on training.

Point shooting doesn't have to be over analyzed.

Point shooting is quite simply instinctive, reactive shooting when there is no time to use the sights. Period.

The most IMPORTANT thing is to recognize when it should be used and practice it.
 
You come across as another keyboard commando....

Studying this and that. Reading this and that, will never take the place of hands on training.

Point shooting doesn't have to be over analyzed.

Point shooting is quite simply instinctive, reactive shooting when there is no time to use the sights. Period.

The most IMPORTANT thing is to recognize when it should be used and practice it.
That is exactly the same way I feel about it. I guess I'm not the only keyboard commondo in this thread, am I?
 
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