Police Rifles

[Farmer17]

I remember in the late 1970s three Oklahoma Highway Patrol officers were killed by two escape convicts with rifles and the OHP immediately started to issue rifles and training to every trooper. I was in a car wreck and remember seeing the troopers open car door which had a Mini-14 with 20 round mag and folding stock carried upside down on the bottom of the car door. Car doors were pretty big in those days

 

[Wyo]

My son is a deputy sheriff. His department issues M4-type carbines but officers are allowed to carry personally owned rifles if they qualify with them. He carries an M1A Scout Squad rifle in 7.62x 51 and a Remington 870, both with the standard iron sights. His patrol vehicle is a 3/4 ton Chevy Silverado and the long arms are carried in a vertical rack. A standard length M1A is too long, hence the shorter Scout Squad. The thinking here is that there is some likelihood that he will be on his own in the event of a problem (we live in a very large, rural county), maybe 45 minutes from help. Incidents may involve multiple perps and would probably involve a vehicle. The 308 seems better suited for such occasions. He is required to qualify out to 100 yds but on the one occasion it was necessary to use it the distance was more like 30 feet and closing fast.

 

[Texas Star]

I remember in the late 1970s three Oklahoma Highway Patrol officers were killed by two escape convicts with rifles and the OHP immediately started to issue rifles and training to every trooper. I was in a car wreck and remember seeing the troopers open car door which had a Mini-14 with 20 round mag and folding stock carried upside down on the bottom of the car door. Car doors were pretty big in those days

I watched, The Sheriff of Cochise TV show about 1958. He had a Model 94 mounted in his station wagon door. Don't know how common that was in AZ then.

Did anyone else watching the video note the swords some Mounties drew?

 

[DWalt]

When I livet in the Metroplex in the late 70s-early 80s, I remember seeing Dallas County deputies with M94 Winchesters.

 

[Kiwi cop]

When I livet in the Metroplex in the late 70s-early 80s, I remember seeing Dallas County deputies with M94 Winchesters.

I remember reading once about the Watts riots in LA In 1965 and one old time cop commenting on being armed with a "cowboy rifle" the '94 that LAPD still had in inventory.

 

[Donn]

I thought Mounties were issued Lee-Enfield SMLE's. Guess not. Old, yeah. Bolt action, yeah. They would've been a hell of a lot more effective than handguns.

 

[Toyman]

My son carries a personally owned 10 inch AR. The department allows individual officers to carry these but the must have the tax stamp.
I shot this at an indoor range in Las Vegas, the muzzle flame was intense.

 

[LVSteve]

I thought Mounties were issued Lee-Enfield SMLE's. Guess not. Old, yeah. Bolt action, yeah. They would've been a hell of a lot more effective than handguns.

I believe the Northern Patrol (or something like that) just handed in the last of their Enfields that they carried for bear duty.

 

[BB57]

My son carries a personally owned 10 inch AR. The department allows individual officers to carry these but the must have the tax stamp.
I shot this at an indoor range in Las Vegas, the muzzle flame was intense.

That's the problem with a really short .223 barrel. You end up with a long flash can on the front, and it's still not satisfactory.

I have a very close clone of an XM-177E1 that I built but with a 12" barrel and blind pinned moderator clone to get 16" and avoid a tax stamp. I didn't regret it as I found it is as short as I'd ever want to go in .223.

On the other hand, if you have a carbine in 9mm, then 10" makes a great deal of sense - but you give up the penetration of the .223 round.

----

This is one of my favorite AR-15 carbines. It has a short, but very strong entry stock, triangular handguard and a 16" barrel. With the slick side upper, it is also about as light as you can get without going with a polymer lower, and weighs just 5.7 pounds empty with sling and magazine.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

A Class III dealer that is a friend of mine (at least as long as I buy guns!) had a HK 53. 10" barrel, 223, collapsing stock, select fire, 40 round mags; kind of like a MP5 but in 223! He was test firing in a dirt berm behind his house when it first arrived. Started with one single shot. Wham, it got him right in the stomach, he felt the wound; No Blood! How could this be? he checked again and there was no entry wound! It turns out, he was not hit with a ricochet. The concussion was so great, he only thought he was shot!

The end buyer is a friend of mine also, he thinks it is lots of fun, but is working on suppressing it!

Ivan

 

[Squarebutt]

I've heard that the North Hollywood bank robbery and gunfight resulted in a good number of agencies deciding it was time to issue rifles.

 

[TxShooter]

Our patrol deputies are issued 16" Diamondback ARs and Mossberg 590s. I normally carry a personal 16" Colt 6920 and a Remington 870.

My alternate AR is an 11.5" Colt 6933. The short barrel is handy, but I chose it so I can eventually add a suppressor without being overly long.

I like having the option of a rifle or shotgun as needed, but if I could only carry one it'd be an AR.

 

[codenamedave]

With no disrespect to the fallen, who could only do what they were trained to do, that Canadian post-shooting response is a classic example of coming up with a hardware scapegoat for a wetware problem, ala the FBI response to the Miami Shootout.

I remember in the late 1970s three Oklahoma Highway Patrol officers were killed by two escape convicts with rifles and the OHP immediately started to issue rifles and training to every trooper. I was in a car wreck and remember seeing the troopers open car door which had a Mini-14 with 20 round mag and folding stock carried upside down on the bottom of the car door. Car doors were pretty big in those days

That's interesting, y'all've come a long way. When I saw the dashcam footage from the Vance pursuit I was like: "Da-yum, them Okie Troopers don't play!!"

 

[Doug M.]

My academy (in 1989) taught that slugs were the primary load for a shotgun, advocated rifles if available, and that buckshot was a specialized load. I still have slugs in my personal shotgun. My last agency had the Flite Control 00Buck, which was impressive, and also ARs, one in each patrol car. I carried my own AR, a Bravo Company, with Aimpoint H1, Surefire flashlight (P2X, now a P3X), and a VTAC sling.

A lot of hard lessons have been learned in the last 30 or so years. Distilled down, it can be expressed that a pistol is a secondary weapon, one you carry for the times you have no reason to expect a problem. If you have reason to expect a problem, and can't avoid it (such as in LE duty), you need to be carrying a long gun (usually a rifle). Some agencies have gone with SBRs (for which the federal paperwork is pretty easy, and usually takes a lot less time than getting a quality upper), because they want their officers to be able to grab the rifle, sling up, and charge it before they are out of the car.

If I were back in the field for some reason, I would want a best quality SBR at 11.5", with a can - because the noise is obnoxious, and the can keeps the preventable hearing damage down, especially if it has to be taken into a building and used. I'm not at all close to the SOCOM level with an AR, but I can do a lot better for myself with one than a pistol.

 

[JayFramer]

FULL EPISODE: Under Fire - YouTube


Here'a a Canadian program on whether police should have patrol rifles, training needed, and why the RCMP has dragged its heels in
getting rifles to their men.

I found it very interesting. Among other conclusions is that they deem a 9mm pistol effective to 25 yards, and a shotgun to just 20 yards. Rifles are expected to perform at 100 yards, which seems pretty short, if a suitable rifle is in good hands.

If you're in LE,do you carry a rife? What sort, and how far out are you expected to be able to use it?

Note that many local and provincial police forces in Canada have rifles, although the federal RCMP wasn't effectively getting them into use when this program was filmed.The emotional trigger to issue rifles was a deranged (?) man in Moncton (New Brunswick?) taking rifles on a killing spree. Police with only handguns were at a disadvantage and some died. Note the colorful funeral ceremony.

Bear in mind that when a killer slew Canadian Forces soldiers and invaded Parliament in Ottawa, an armed response with rifles wasn't at hand. The Sgt.-at-Arms for Parliament, a retired Mountie with a 9mm S&W, killed that invader. I think patrol rifles are a good idea. Police in Texas seem to use them a lot. I've worked with Dallas officers who got out rifles from their cars to investigate a burglary. I think it was sound. Some gunmen here a few years back did a bank holdup, I think, and police were outgunned. Since, most armed themselves with .223/5.56 mm rifles.

Some in this video seem to have awfully short barrels, as do those used by some UK armed police seen in a different video. I think a 20" barrel is about right for this need. Sniper rifles are another matter.

Finally, some officers need to be trained to shoot zoo or other dangerous animals presenting a threat to the public. These should be more powerful than typical patrol rifles.

Why do you think the barrels are "quite short" in that video? That is often a good thing for tactical use. If you think it somehow reduces accuracy or effectiveness, think again.