Possible .45 Colt 2nd Hand Ejector

[Chuck F]

Howdy!
I just acquired what I thought was a Commercial 1917 in marginal shape. Some rust, wear etc. When I got it home, it ABSOLUTELY would not chamber ACP in moon clips. Loose rounds dropped deep into cylinder. I looked and there was no shoulder, only a taper to chamber throat deeper than an ACP case.
I loaded the cylinder with .45 Colt factory rounds. They dropped in just right and the cylinder closed properly. The headspace looks about right, rounds clear recoil shield well but not excessively.
SN is 1792xx, and matches frame cylinder and bbl. There are no factory rework marks on frame or cylinder. What should be the OAL on a .45 Colt cylinder vs an ACP ONE. Input is welcome!
Thanks,
Chuck

 

[DWalt]

It is indeed possible that a Model 1917 in .45 ACP could have been re-chambered for .45 Colt. This was usually done by re-chambering with a .45 Colt reamer a little short, to allow the case rim to stand a little off the rear chamber space in order to maintain the proper headspace, i.e., headspacing off the case mouth, not the rim. You might check to see if the .45 Colt cartridge rims sit flush on the cylinder face or not. However you should be able to see the step in the chamber for the case mouth seat, and you say that you can't. Another possibility is a replacement .45 Colt cylinder. Does the cylinder serial number match?

 

[steelslaver]

Not sure about the very early 45 colts, but, until the 25-5 all I have seen had a cylinder that was only about .030 longer than 45acp cylinders, (room for moon clips) same length as 44 specials and shorter by rim thickness than 357 (recesses). How much space between recoil shield and rear of cylinder? Should be between .060 min and .074 max.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Is it stamped S&W DA .45 on the left side of the barrel? Can you see the SN on the rear face of the cylinder?

 

[Chuck F]

SN visible

The SN on the cylinder matches frame, bbl is marked "S&W DA 45". .45 Colt rounds rim rests on chamber faces. Not much clearance between case head and recoil shield, but sufficient to freely rotate.

 

[steelslaver]

You could move a 45ACP cylinder to the rear by fitting a 44 special extractor that was opened up and stretching or shimming the yoke tube. Then set the barrel back a couple turns and re gap it. Then a 45 acp cylinder would head space, ream it deeper and there you are a 45 colt that head spaces correctly using a 45 acp cylinder.

But, then S&W was also know to make special orders so who knows without a letter.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

The SN is above the WWI military range but below the Brazilians. It is possibly a factory .45 Colt. They did make some. It should have no U.S. Property stamp under the barrel and just the SN on the butt. There should also be a small trademark stamp on the left side of the frame below the cylinder release. Some pictures would help immensely. But, you are going to need a letter on this one.

 

[Chuck F]

Marks all correct

The revolver is properly marked for a commercial HE, small trademark on port side, SN only on butt, no US Property or acceptance marks. Distance from cylinder to recoil shield about .065", with about .012 from case head of chambered .45 Colt to recoil shield.
I will measure the cylinder tonight, and if it seems more .44 HE than 1917 in length I suppose it's time for Mr. Jinks to work his magic!
Thanks to all who helped out on this one; it may be worth the cleaning up.

 

[steelslaver]

The head space is correct for a 45 colt. It would be way wider on a 45 acp

You may just have a rare bird that someone ordered special. Good luck.

 

[Hondo44]

Chuck,

Welcome to the forum.

This appears to be a very interesting hand ejector.

You posted cyl serial # matches the gun, headspace appears correct, appears to be a com'l, so that tells us it has no military roll marks. But the serial # is in the Model 1917 Army series. Therefore probably built from inventory on a surplus 1917 frame and has an eagle head over an S with a 1 or 2 digit # in the yoke

These in the 1917 Army series are hard to date because they are built and shipped out of serial # order, therefore could be anytime between 1920 and 1946 or so.

So we need to know some of its features:

Do 45 Colt case chamber with rims seated on the cyl face?
What's the total barrel length?
Does it have a small S&W logo on left side frame or larger logo on the sideplate?
Is it stamped MADE IN U.S.A. on right side front of frame?
Does it have an extractor rod knob shaped like an acorn or mushroom?
Or a barrel shaped knob?

Some things are pointing to a factory 45 Colt so far.

However, the 45 Colt known examples are built on ".44 Hand Ejector - 2nd Models" factory chambered in 45 Colt, some of which were also built on 1917 left over war time frames. But they are serial #d from ~ #15376 into the #59XXX in the 44 2nd Model range. 727 were built in 45 Colt only with 6 1/2" barrels.

I agree with those above, you'll need an Historical letter to confirm if it was originally shipped from the factory in 45 Colt.

 

[wheelgun610]

Just for reference, here are cylinder lengths for three pre-war N frames I have:

1926 - .44, S/N 33573: 1.568"

38/44, S/N 49173: 1.574"

1926 - .44 S/N 54836: 1.574"

Mark

 

[linde]

I just acquired what I thought was a Commercial 1917 . . . it ABSOLUTELY would not chamber ACP in moon clips . . . I loaded the cylinder with .45 Colt factory rounds. They dropped in just right and the cylinder closed properly. The headspace looks about right, rounds clear recoil shield well but not excessively. SN is 172xxx, and matches frame, cylinder and bbl. There are no factory rework marks on frame or cylinder. What should be the OAL on a .45 Colt cylinder vs an ACP ONE ? . . .

I have Commercial 1917 s/n 179014 chambered in 45 Colt . . . not factory original when shipped in August 1927 but a factory re-work in July 1949.

In response to your question:
.45 ACP cylinder s/n 96645 OAL measures 1.540"
.45 Colt cylinder s/n 179014 OAL measures 1.575"

The headspace (between recoil shield & cylinder) on the 1917 with the 45 Colt cylinder measures .063" at the firing pin . . . as much as .070" elsewhere

Here is a thread on this subject with some very knowledgeable members contributing excellent information. My conversion above is shown in post #45

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...7-commercial-45-long-colt.html?highlight=Colt

However your Model 1917 began life, I hope you enjoy shooting as much as I do mine.

Russ

 

[Hondo44]

Jim Fisher's Post # 24 is particularly interesting:
"6. Heavy duty 38/44 chambered in 45 colt 12 made in 1937-38 for
sherriffs dept in Calf. I own one in 5 inch blue 98% all original"

 

[Bill Bates]

I have a 1917 Commercial that was converted to .45 Colt Ctg. by Smith & Wesson. For the world it looks just like a 2nd Model Hand Ejector. It was rebarreled with 6 1/2 inch .455 barrel which works well with old .454 Colt slugs. The cylinder and ejector parts were replaced. All the parts: cylinder, ejector star and barrel have matching serial numbers and the replacement part diamond stamps.

The cylinder length measures 1.567 inches and the head space is about 0.072"

 

[Skeetr57]

I don't think that a .45 Colt cylinder can be fitted to a gun originally chambered for .45 ACP without some additioitional machining on the cylinder or frame because the cylinder will hit the cylinder stop stud in the frame. Within the last year or so, I bought a .45 colt cylinder that had been factory fitted to a M 1950 or 1955 revolver. I tried it in both my 1950 and 1955 target guns, and it had to have a small rebate machined at the rear of the cylinder to clear the stop stud. Length wise, it was a better fit in the 1950, so that is what I fitted it to. I also have an issue 1917, and a 1917 commercial, but I didn't try it in them because of the different ejector rod heads.

 

[steelslaver]

It is easy to modify the cylinder stop instead of the cylinder. You can also easily replace it.

 

[linde]

I don't think that a .45 Colt cylinder can be fitted to a gun originally chambered for .45 ACP without some additional machining on the cylinder or frame because the cylinder will hit the cylinder stop stud in the frame . . .

It is easy to modify the cylinder stop instead of the cylinder. You can also easily replace it.

No need to modify the frame or the .45 Colt cylinder.

Factory conversions demonstrate that the cylinder window in the frame can accommodate the additional .035" cylinder length of the 45 Colt.

Modification of barrel setback and cylinder stop will be required.

Russ

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Could it have been originally chambered in .455 for the British market, not shipped, and later converted, or (not knowing the chamber profile of the .455) left as is?

(Update)
Well, answered my own question since S&W's made for the .455 were marked .455. Oh, well.

 

[Chuck F]

I measured the cylinder, it seems to match the .44-.45 length ones. There is also a relief cut in the stud in the frame to allow clearance of rimmed cases.

Thanks for all the advice, and I have sent a request for a letter to S&W Historical Foundation.

 

[Chuck F]

Got my letter

I got my letter in the mail today. It IS an original 1917 HE in .45Colt, special ordered as one of five revolvers shipped to Moore Handley Hardware I Birmingham AL in 1926.
I am happy it is original.
More to follow.