Pre Model 10...help me please

[stringpicker]

I'm a semi-automatic guy, generally, so bear with me please. I have what appears to be a pre-Model 10 K frame revolver. It's a hand ejector 5 screw with strain screw and fixed sights. The serial number is long gone...I've looked on the butt and front strap, and removed the wood thinking that it may be hidden there. The only numbers are the assembly numbers.

Upon looking at the butt closer, it appears that it once had a swivel that has been ground off, and the ghost of only two numbers remain. The bluing on that surface matches that of the rest of the pistol, so I'm betting the firearm was worked on many, many moons ago.

I've added a few photos to help you help me identify a range of years in which this could have been made. Also, how would I go about being able to legally transfer this without the serial numbers?

 

[Absalom]

Ouch. What you have there can be legal trouble.

It was almost certainly an M&P from the WW II era, most likely the British Service version originally in .38 S&W. The barrel has been cut and the gun scrubbed of markings and refinished.

Other potential locations for the serial are under the barrel and on the back face of the cylinder; harder to see can be the ones on the back of the extractor star and the back side of the yoke arm. But only the butt holds the legal frame serial.

You would not be able to legally transfer it; technically, you cannot legally own it. I don't give any further legal advice; others probably will. But just from the gun's value as such, this isn't a gun worth any risk.

 

[stringpicker]

Ouch. What you have there can be legal trouble.

It was almost certainly an M&P from the WW II era, most likely the British Service version originally in .38 S&W. The barrel has been cut and the gun scrubbed of markings and refinished.

Other potential locations for the serial are under the barrel and on the back face of the cylinder; harder to see can be the ones on the back of the extractor star and the back side of the yoke arm. But only the butt holds the legal frame serial.

This is what I was afraid of. I'm helping liquidate a friend's collection inherited from his father, and out of the collection, this is the only one I've had this trouble with so far. I have removed two from the collection due to being too far gone to do anything with...he plans on using those at the next buy-back. This one has been in his family for many years, is a nice shooter, but looks like he will wind up keeping it til the next generation.

I'll tear it down further and see if I can spy any numbers with my loupes.

 

[JP@AK]

Yes. I think we can say with a high degree of confidence it is a chopped BSR. Moreover, you can see the serial number on the barrel flat in the first three pictures, so open the cylinder and look on the underside of the barrel. Serial number will probably start with the letter V.

The best thing about this revolver is the stocks. They are from after WWII and probably started out with checking. But they still actually look pretty good. They are not original to this revolver.

Too bad about the serial number. I don't think there is anything you can do to make this a legal gun. It certainly cannot be legally sold.

Technically, it is not a "pre-Model 10." It is a bit too old for that. Those start in about 1948, with the introduction of the high speed hammer. But you can correctly refer to it as a predecessor to the Model 10.

 

[Hondo44]

Method to make removed serial #s reappear:

1. This can be done with nitric acid, or "nicodate" sold in coin shops. After application, the # will magically appear. It's actually exposing the compressed metal from the stamping appear in a contrasting darker gray to the surrounding metal.
Is this a legal serial number?

 

[stringpicker]

Method to make removed serial #s reappear:

1. This can be done with nitric acid, or "nicodate" sold in coin shops. After application, the # will magically appear. It's actually exposing the compressed metal from the stamping appear in a contrasting darker gray to the surrounding metal.
Is this a legal serial number?

I would definitely say that the work done to the 38 is pre-1968. I have a friend in forensics that further developed the acid process, even wrote a book and developed kits to assist. I might call him in and see if we can raise the numbers from the dead.

Darned shame to find this one, though. Action is crisp and has good lock up. The work done, while not the cleanest, isnt bad.

 

[ken158]

Look under the barrel flat and on the rear of the cylinder above the chambers. Prior to 1968, no serial number was required anyway. I think you are fine but many will get crazy about it.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

You can always ask the ATF to issue you a serial number if you can't trace the original. The original work was probably done before 1968 and it's in an estate. If you can pull the serial number from the barrel or the cylinder, it's likely they'll let you use that on the frame.

Guy

 

[steelslaver]

I doubt you would get in trouble for having that gun. Maybe if you were doing something you shouldn't have been they would try tto use it as a tack on charge. Plus, you could probably eventually obtain permission to re-stamp it.

But, its not worth either of those and I am a gun molester who is way more into the shooter side than the safe queen side. I hate to see a good frame go to waste though.

 

[DWalt]

Look under the barrel flat and on the rear of the cylinder above the chambers. Prior to 1968, no serial number was required anyway. I think you are fine but many will get crazy about it.

Not so. Shotguns and .22 rifles were exempted from serial numbering until the GCA of 1968. The NFA of 1934 made it illegal to obliterate, remove or alter the serial number of a "firearm" as classified by the NFA. However, the NFA only applied to a specific class of weapons. Later on, the GCA of 1968 made it illegal to obliterate, remove or alter the serial number of a much broader classification of firearm, not just those subject to the NFA. The real issue is establishing when the SN was removed, which is clearly impossible in the vast majority of cases.

There is a fairly lengthy discussion here: Are Firearms without Serial Numbers Illegal? - Pennsylvania Law Abiding Gun Owner Blog.

 

[DWalt]

You can always ask the ATF to issue you a serial number if you can't trace the original. The original work was probably done before 1968 and it's in an estate. If you can pull the serial number from the barrel or the cylinder, it's likely they'll let you use that on the frame.

Guy

Not very practical. It's far from a simple procedure to do and not worth the bureaucratic hassle, especially so for an otherwise worthless gun. It involves much more than simply walking into a BATFE office and requesting to have a new SN stamped on the gun. You might read about the 2012 RR auction of Bonnie Parker's Detective Special Squat Gun which had its SNs removed. It has been reported that BATFE took quite a long while to authorize a new SN be stamped on it so it could be legally sold. In general, the owner of such a gun needs a very compelling story as to exactly why the SN has been removed or obliterated before they will do anything other than to confiscate it on the spot, and maybe charge you with a felony.

 

[Art Doc]

IMO that gun isn't worth anything but a few parts removed. However, if it were mine and I wanted to keep it I would go to Harbor Freight and buy a $10 set of stamps and put the serial on the grip frame. You know what it is being under the barrel and on cylinder.

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

NUMBERS

You can always ask the ATF to issue you a serial number if you can't trace the original. The original work was probably done before 1968 and it's in an estate. If you can pull the serial number from the barrel or the cylinder, it's likely they'll let you use that on the frame.

Guy

Yest to the above, but I believe an AFT agent has to be there and witness the stamping. Given your location- good luck with that-

 

[jeffrefrig]

I think the gun buy-back program would be where I'd take it. Unless stripping it down and selling the parts would get you more cash. But that's me. I get scared around anything like that, especially a gun. Heck, the grip panels could get you a few bucks; sell them then do the buy-back. I don't know, but good luck. I seriously doubt it's a stolen gun, but is it worth making it legal to sell? That I wouldn't know, either. I'd like to see that acid process; I could've used that on my first Harley! I bought it when I was 18 and stupid. (Even more stupid than I am now!)

 

[Wiregrassguy]

If it is too much trouble and not worth the cost, I'd cannibalize the saleable parts and destroy the frame. You are likely to make more from that than you would get for the gun if sold to a knowledgeable buyer.

 

[larryofcc]

I think the gun buy-back program would be where I'd take it. Unless stripping it down and selling the parts would get you more cash. But that's me. I get scared around anything like that, especially a gun. Heck, the grip panels could get you a few bucks; sell them then do the buy-back. I don't know, but good luck. I seriously doubt it's a stolen gun, but is it worth making it legal to sell? That I wouldn't know, either. I'd like to see that acid process; I could've used that on my first Harley! I bought it when I was 18 and stupid. (Even more stupid than I am now!)

Don't feel bad. Most of us are all stupid at 18. Big Larry

 

[Jim Watson]

As I read it, a firearm with serial number removed no matter when made or when defaced, is illegal to even possess.
BUT
There are untold numbers of Smith and Wesson revolvers registered by the "fitting number" under the yoke, especially if they have target grips that cover the butt. That is where Colts are numbered and it is where Smiths are numbered NOW. I don't know when that started, my M25-2 has the serial number under the yoke, duplicating the one on the butt.

So you would have to be very naughty and your revolver examined by a knowledgeable expert to get caught out on it. Officer Friendly would probably note the number under the yoke, and move on.

 

[DWalt]

Realistically, the probability of ever getting caught with a contraband gun such as this is very low. But not zero. If it were mine I wouldn't advertise that I had it to anyone, I wouldn't attempt to sell it (which in itself could constitute an illegal activity), nor would I carry or use it in any way as a personal defensive weapon.

 

[Waveski]

The serial is erased , the ejector rod locking lug wound up on someone's shop floor , and it appears that the side plate is misfit.

Parts gun in my book. Nice grips anyway.

 

[Igiveup]

I agree with Art Doc, stamp the numbers on the frame that match the barrel. Raising the numbers with acid will also work. I just don't see a big problem with it.